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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3521167" data-attributes="member: 2020">I would add a thought to the epic discussion concerning spells.  In my opinion, spells that alter mechanics in small ways, are lower level spells.  Spells that alter mechanics in big ways, but don't change the reality of the mechanics, are higher level spells.  Spells that alter the reality of the mechanics are even higher, and these are your Epic Spells.  In a 3.5 universe where spells are nerfed, and you wish to go with 10th level or higher spells, consider that thought.  I would give some examples.  - Haste, in it's basic 3.5 form, allows you an extra attack.  This is an alteration of the mechanics.  - Haste, in it's 3.0 form, allowed you an extra Partial Action.  This is a major alteration of the mechanics.  - Tempus Fugit, from the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana, allowed you to take 6 actions per round to each 1 of opponents beyond 10 feet.  In other words, you could fire 6 arrows to their 1, or fire 6 spells to their 1.  This was a truly major alteration of the mechanics, and might be considered Epic (and most certainly, Broken.)  - Melee Manager and Magic Manager, from the 2nd Edition Chronomancer supplement, were another matter.  Melee Manager allowed you up to (theoretically) make 15 attacks per round, and it stacked with Haste (and it would have stacked with Tempus Fugit, too.)  Magic Manager allowed you to cast up to (theoretically) 15 spells in a single round.  It also stacked with Haste, and with Tempus Fugit.  For these spells altered Time itself.  These are examples of spells that do not alter the mechanics, but stretch them to such an extremity that the mechanics are really nullified.  - Now, add in Time Stop, 1st Edition.  With this spell, you freeze everyone, and you act while they are frozen.  You are perfectly free to stick a sword in them and leave it there, or drench them in acid and wait for the spell to end, or any other nasty thing you can think of.  This spell overturned the reality of the combat round altogether, and replaced it with a new reality of the wizard's choosing (that reality being, he gets to kill everyone while they are frozen helpless.)  No saving throw, and SR in 1st edition was useless against anyone strong enough to throw a Time Stop.  This version of Time Stop is more of an Epic Spell than even Melee Manager or Magic Manager.  Let's try another series of spells.  - Shield was a defensive spell that grants some AC protection, and other things.  That's a modification of mechanics.  - Fire Shield, in it's 1st Edition form, was a defensive spell that also altered reality, in that the attacker took double damage from any melee attacks on the wizard.  The battlefield was, once again, remade (slightly) to the wizard's design.  - Stoneskin, in it's 2nd edition form, was a defensive spell that considerably changed the battlefield reality.  For it negated a certain number of attacks, regardless of how much damage the attack caused ... just so long as it was an actual attack.  Thus, a 1,500 point kick from a titan would be blocked as easily as a pebble thrown by a pixie.  - Dimensional Folding, the clerical spell from the 2nd Edition Tome of Magic, was a colossal alteration of reality, and might count as an Epic Spell.  This spell created a barrier that reflected pretty much everything directly back, like a mirror reflects light.  Thus, if an arrow was fired at the cleric, it got shot back at it's owner.  An attack was rolled to see if it hit it's owner.  If Acererak threw his Auto-Kill Gaze at the cleric, it would be Acererak's skull that melted into goo and disappeared, while his soul would be sucked into one of his own gems.  Reality overturned.  Let's try a spell that *really* overturned reality:  Transforming Tune (from FOR3 Code of the Harpers.)  This spell allowed you to regain any spell in your repetoire, at the rate of one per round, including the Transforming Tune spell in question or any other 9th level spells.  Transforming Tune lasted a real long time, too:  long enough to regain itself and at least 17 other spells.  Transforming Tune allowed other things, but this was the big one.  With this spell, your wizard had an infinite number of spells he could cast each day.  Even if you nerfed the spell so that the wizard could only regain 8th level and lower spells with Transforming Tune, it still provided a way to regain the greater part of a spell arsenal.  (Add in the Persistent Spell Feat from 3.0, where the spell duration is 24 hours, and you the DM have a serious problem ...)  This would be an Epic Spell.  Now, take a high level wizard and give him the 3.0 Haste, the 1st Edition Tempus Fugit, the 2nd Edition Melee Manager and Magic Manager, the 1st Edition Time Stop, and the 2nd Edition Transforming Tune, assume they all stack, add in a ton of 3rd Edition Feats and Epic Feats,  and you've got someone who just might kick some CR 9,000 monster butt.</blockquote>

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