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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 3169114" data-attributes="member: 4303">Didn't we have this conversation before?Actually, I like it. I'm comfortable erring on the side of generous seeds right now, given Matt's demonstrated prodigious metamagic capabilities. A 21st-level caster can choose to [Call] or [Summon] a balor; if he summons it (say for 20 rounds, with no other mitigation), he gets unconditional service but doesn't benefit from some of its SLAs (teleport, summon etc.). Jacobeans are going to excel in conjurations anyway, by the looks of things. It's 3.5 bone devils on average from summon monster IX (CR almost 17): also bear in mind that using this yardstick, Matt can empower this spell at 23rd level (5.25 bone devils = CR 20.6), albeit for only 20 rounds. There again, he can cast it 5 times in a day - that's a lot of bone devils. A 21st level wizard who opts for a summon balor spell is only going to be able to cast it once in a day. A 23rd-level Jake could cast two of these in a day - by this time, they'd have an unmitigated 20-minute duration. A brace of summoned balors is handy, no doubt, but I can see a lot of situations where the bone devils - and multiple redundancies therof - might be handier. We're stuck in the power vs. flexibility conundrum, as always. Multiple lower-CR summonees are going to be viable for Matt; at 30th-level he can triple-empower his summon monster IX (8.75 bone devils, CR 26.6). Jake can summon a solar - that's pretty sweet. But that assumes a WotC CR, and I think we should probably be looking at Pd28. Without mitigation or appropriate feats, the solar isn't available until level 37 using the Pd scale (SP40 for a 20-round spell). Lots to think about, here.**Edit: I'm wondering if a thread per seed might be a little excessive. You might want to consolidate a little.</blockquote>

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