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<blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3169804" data-attributes="member: 141">I remembered one of my concerns the last time this question came up: the issue of a caster summoning creatures more powerful than he is.&nbsp; The +1CR = +2SP will keep this from getting out of hand, but it is possible for a 21st level wizard to [summon] a CR 23 creature; reduce duration and range by two steps each and increase casting time to 1 round.&nbsp; Quite modest expenditures of xp can make the difference quite dramatic.There's a similar issue with [polymorph].This raises some difficulties with CR.&nbsp; Is a 21st level wizard a CR 21 even if he summons a CR 23 monster to fight his enemies?&nbsp; It seems counterintuitive to think that a CR 23 monster is worth more when it is by itself than when it has a wizard providing back-up.&nbsp; Sure it is not quite as good as a real CR 23 monster, and the wizard had to waste a round casting the spell,... but still it is a little troubling to me.What's the CR of a summoned monster?&nbsp; One less than a real monster?&nbsp; Two less?&nbsp; How much (CR-wise) is the loss of one epic spell slot and 1 full round of actions?&nbsp; Is this worth worrying about?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cheiromancer, post: 3169804, member: 141"] I remembered one of my concerns the last time this question came up: the issue of a caster summoning creatures more powerful than he is. The +1CR = +2SP will keep this from getting out of hand, but it is possible for a 21st level wizard to [summon] a CR 23 creature; reduce duration and range by two steps each and increase casting time to 1 round. Quite modest expenditures of xp can make the difference quite dramatic. There's a similar issue with [polymorph]. This raises some difficulties with CR. Is a 21st level wizard a CR 21 even if he summons a CR 23 monster to fight his enemies? It seems counterintuitive to think that a CR 23 monster is worth more when it is by itself than when it has a wizard providing back-up. Sure it is not quite as good as a real CR 23 monster, and the wizard had to waste a round casting the spell,... but still it is a little troubling to me. What's the CR of a summoned monster? One less than a real monster? Two less? How much (CR-wise) is the loss of one epic spell slot and 1 full round of actions? Is this worth worrying about? [/QUOTE]

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