Summon monster into an occupied square?

[Kershek]

When casting summon monster, you need to target a square at the beginning of the casting. One round later, if an enemy moves into that square, and you're casting a medium-sized creature or larger, what happens?

1) The creature appears in the same square and needs to take a 5-foot step, or whatever movement is necessary, to an unoccupied square once it appears. Unoccupied means it isn't inhabited by a creature of at least medium size.

2) Use the scatter rules to pick an adjacent unoccupied square within the range of the spell and the creature appears there.

3) The spell fails since the square isn't unoccupied.

 

[hammymchamham]

I vote for #2

 

[Kershek]

Must... listen... to... iconic... pig....

 

[AuraSeer]

When casting summon monster, you need to target a square at the beginning of the casting.

Er... why, exactly?

If you cast fireball or some such, you don't need to specify the target area until the end of casting. Is there a ruling that says the summon spells are different?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Summon monster into an occupied square?

If you cast fireball or some such, you don't need to specify the target area until the end of casting. Is there a ruling that says the summon spells are different?

Um, actually, Effects and Areas are chosen at start of casting. It's very explicit.

Targets are chosen at start of casting, and they're chosen at the end of casting. It's also very explicit, in two different places on the same page, and contradicts itself.

But it doesn't matter in this case, because neither fireball nor summon monster is a targetted spell. Fireball is an area - chosen at start of casting - and Summon Monster is an effect - chosen at start of casting.

-Hyp.

 

[Caliban]

Re: Re: Summon monster into an occupied square?

Er... why, exactly?

If you cast fireball or some such, you don't need to specify the target area until the end of casting. Is there a ruling that says the summon spells are different?

The rules actually contradict themselves on this point.

PHB, page 148, Casting Time, last paragraph: "You must make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, etc.) when you begin casting."

PHB, page 148, Aiming a Spell, Target or Targets, 1st paragraph, last sentence: "However, you do not have to select your target until the moment you finish casting the spell."

The FAQ has this to say on the subject:

On page 148 of the Player’s Handbook under Casting
Time, it says you must make all pertinent decisions about a
spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so on) when
you begin casting. However, on the same page under
Aiming a Spell it says you do not have to select your target
until the moment you finish casting the spell. Which is it?

You have to make all the decisions required to complete the
spell when you begin the spell, just as noted under the Casting
Time heading—except the spell’s target. The process is
analogous to loading a gun. You have to decide what kind of
ammunition to load before you can aim and pull the trigger, but
you don’t have to pick a target until you’re ready to pull the
trigger.

 

[Kershek]

Re: Re: Re: Summon monster into an occupied square?

The FAQ has this to say on the subject:

Thanks for the clarification. Now I don't have to worry about this sticky subject at all!

 

[Destil]

I'd suppose you could interperate "(range, target, area, effect, version, etc.)" as something like the case of shatter:
Area or Target: 3-ft.-radius spread; or one solid object or one crystalline creature

Where you need to determin if you use the area or target 'version' (or, if it were an option, the effect version) at the start, but don't need to specify the accual target or area until casting.

Though "(range, target, area or effect; version, etc.)" would be clearer.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd suppose you could interperate "(range, target, area, effect, version, etc.)" as something like the case of shatter:
Area or Target: 3-ft.-radius spread; or one solid object or one crystalline creature

That's the version. Choosing the effect includes the location.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's worth noting that you can define the location of an effect in more than one way - visually/spatially ("the monster will appear there"), or descriptively.

The example of a descriptive location they give in the PHB is "20 feet into the area of darkness the nagas are hiding in".

It could be possible to interpret this to mean you can, at the beginning of casting, designate the location your celestial badger will appear to be "beside that orc"... and if the orc moves, the description is still valid, and the badger will still appear threatening the orc. However, it's also possible to interpret "beside that orc" as being "in the 5' square next to where the orc is now", so if the orc moves, that 5' square is still in the same place.

It's a DM call.

-Hyp.