So I'm trying to expand summon moster so that there are more choices for a lawful good character. Any idea how the summon monster lists in the spell description were compiled. First, I thought maybe HD, then maybe CR, then maybe some multiple of the CR. None of these work. I want to expand the lists, but I can't figure out what the rules Wizards of the Coast used to compile the lists. Please help!
summon monster
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Geoff Watson
First Post
oops
Geoff.
Geoff.
Last edited:
Geoff Watson
First Post
oops again
Geoff.
Geoff.
Last edited:
Geoff Watson
First Post
There's no formula.
Look at the new monster.
Compare with the other monsters of about the same level.
Check what spells/SLAs/special abilities it has. If these are similar to a spell, make the summoning at least that level.
Guess.
Playtest.
NB: Expanding the summoning lists make those spells better, even if the new monsters aren't too powerful; versatility is important, particularly for a sorceror.
PS: You could just change the alignments of the celestial/fiendish creatures, that should be OK.
Geoff.
Look at the new monster.
Compare with the other monsters of about the same level.
Check what spells/SLAs/special abilities it has. If these are similar to a spell, make the summoning at least that level.
Guess.
Playtest.
NB: Expanding the summoning lists make those spells better, even if the new monsters aren't too powerful; versatility is important, particularly for a sorceror.
PS: You could just change the alignments of the celestial/fiendish creatures, that should be OK.
Geoff.
Li Shenron
Legend
There was a thread about this question a few months ago, and someone pointed out that the summon monster list is compiled by CR. Something along the line of
SM I -> CR < 1
SM II -> CR 1 - 2
SM III -> CR 2 - 3
...
clearly the above is not accurate, just an example, you should search the Rules or General forum old threads for the correct one. It would then be very easy to add an appropriate outsider to the right spell.
SM I -> CR < 1
SM II -> CR 1 - 2
SM III -> CR 2 - 3
...
clearly the above is not accurate, just an example, you should search the Rules or General forum old threads for the correct one. It would then be very easy to add an appropriate outsider to the right spell.
Definately expanding the list to the other simple templates helps greatly. Celestial, fiendish, axiomatic, etc (if I remember correctly these all adjust CR in the same way and have comparable powers). For a further expansion you can swap them for other templates that cost appropriate amounts of CR as you go up (this requires some adjucating here and there). For example, celestials of 8hd or more have a CR +2, you could swap this out for any other template that gave a CR +2 (for example, half dragon). This would also increase the amount of different summonings dramatically.
Above and beyond that (as in other creatures) it is a very hard call. Generally it is just comparison, dont put any creatures better at combat than any other on the list for its level, same with utility, and anything else that might come up. Only compare for whatever the creature is really good at though.
For the most part I'd say, (1.5*N) -1 = Max CR, where N is the level of the summon monster spell, comes pretty close through most of them. Some are a little high and others a little low but it feels all right. Almost always the summoning is something way below your own challenge rating anyway.
Above and beyond that (as in other creatures) it is a very hard call. Generally it is just comparison, dont put any creatures better at combat than any other on the list for its level, same with utility, and anything else that might come up. Only compare for whatever the creature is really good at though.
For the most part I'd say, (1.5*N) -1 = Max CR, where N is the level of the summon monster spell, comes pretty close through most of them. Some are a little high and others a little low but it feels all right. Almost always the summoning is something way below your own challenge rating anyway.
jgsugden
Legend
The Summon Monster lists are based upon CR, to an extent. There are some significant aberations, but in general, CR is used.
This is, IMH(but always correct)O, a mistake. The key to Summon Monster should be ECL, not CR or HD. In fact, ECL should be used to control all spells, feats, etc ... that provide allies or alternate forms.
CR is a measure of what a foe can do to oppose you.
HD is a measure of heath and skill in battle, but is subject to so many modifiers and separate scales of power that comparing hit dice really reveals little information.
ECL is a measure of how useful you are amongst your allies.
ECL is what we should be looking at when we consider the 'value' of a summon spell or a polymorph form because we are getting something trhat will be used to aid the party (what ECL measures) as opposed to something that opposes the party (what CR measures).
In my experience, the best summon monster tables are reworked to use ECL. Of course, using this type of system requires the creation of level adjustments and ECLs for all creatures that you might summon. If used for Polymorph, it requires you to created modified ECLs (MECLs) to provide an ECL for the creature without supernatural or spell-like abilities. I also use SMECLs (Supernatural Modified ECLs) to determine what is an appropriate form for Shapechange effects by including the supernatural abilities of a form in the ECL calculations.
I also revised the LA/ECL system to include minimum ECLs for certain abilities ... if a monster can cast dominate monster, it will never have an ECL lower than 17, regardless of how many hit dice it possesses. When we evaluate the strength of allies, we need to consider their strengths far more than we consider their weaknesses. Weaknesses can be overcome far too easily.
For summoning, appropriate creatures (based upon type, etc ... ) are selected from the following criteria:
SM/SNA I: Creatures with ECL of 0 or less.
SM/SNA II: Creatures with ECL 1 or less.
SM/SNA III - IX: Creatures with ECL equal to the (SM/SNA X 2) - 4 (ie; 3 at III, 5 at IV, 7 at V, etc ...)
This system provides an ally that is useful to the PC, but is significantly weaker than the PC or his allies.
This is, IMH(but always correct)O, a mistake. The key to Summon Monster should be ECL, not CR or HD. In fact, ECL should be used to control all spells, feats, etc ... that provide allies or alternate forms.
CR is a measure of what a foe can do to oppose you.
HD is a measure of heath and skill in battle, but is subject to so many modifiers and separate scales of power that comparing hit dice really reveals little information.
ECL is a measure of how useful you are amongst your allies.
ECL is what we should be looking at when we consider the 'value' of a summon spell or a polymorph form because we are getting something trhat will be used to aid the party (what ECL measures) as opposed to something that opposes the party (what CR measures).
In my experience, the best summon monster tables are reworked to use ECL. Of course, using this type of system requires the creation of level adjustments and ECLs for all creatures that you might summon. If used for Polymorph, it requires you to created modified ECLs (MECLs) to provide an ECL for the creature without supernatural or spell-like abilities. I also use SMECLs (Supernatural Modified ECLs) to determine what is an appropriate form for Shapechange effects by including the supernatural abilities of a form in the ECL calculations.
I also revised the LA/ECL system to include minimum ECLs for certain abilities ... if a monster can cast dominate monster, it will never have an ECL lower than 17, regardless of how many hit dice it possesses. When we evaluate the strength of allies, we need to consider their strengths far more than we consider their weaknesses. Weaknesses can be overcome far too easily.
For summoning, appropriate creatures (based upon type, etc ... ) are selected from the following criteria:
SM/SNA I: Creatures with ECL of 0 or less.
SM/SNA II: Creatures with ECL 1 or less.
SM/SNA III - IX: Creatures with ECL equal to the (SM/SNA X 2) - 4 (ie; 3 at III, 5 at IV, 7 at V, etc ...)
This system provides an ally that is useful to the PC, but is significantly weaker than the PC or his allies.
Sir Whiskers
First Post
jgsugden said:
Just my two cents:
If you attempt to do something like this, you should take into account that the 3.5 SM spells do not allow a summoned creature to use its abilities (if any) to summon other creatures, nor any teleportation/planar travel abilities. Losing these abilities will significantly affect the ECL of some creatures.
