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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Summoning and the Hypothetical Battle Reality
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<blockquote data-quote="Rechan" data-source="post: 4670305" data-attributes="member: 54846"><p><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/248998-impact-characters-resistances.html" target="_blank">As shown elsewhere</a>, as a DM I metagame. Not to "win", but actually to give my players the mechanical benefit of the doubt. I.e. if a player has fire resistance, I'll make sure that character gets hit once or twice by a fire attack any time there is fire using monsters (but within reason so it's not unreasonable; not every fire attack will target that PC, and only the first or second from that monster before it wises up). </p><p></p><p>With that said, I come to summoning. And as a DM, I'm not sure what to do. </p><p></p><p>Summoning are dailies. Dailies are meant to change the game, to an extent - at least to have a big impact. Either to last a while (encounter-long effects), change the field (as far as controllers are concerned), or do some definite damage. The problem I see is that summons are glass cannons that might not do what they're meant to.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/2009Feb" target="_blank">From here</a> we know:</p><p>For this experiment, I whipped up a 5th level wizard. With 14 con, he has a bloodied value of 18, and has AC 17 (+1 cloth). His 5th level daily is to summon an Abyssal Maw, a melee combatant with an AC of 17 and 18 HP (because that's how summoned creatures work). </p><p></p><p>Let's look at 5th level opponents that the Maw will be facing.</p><p></p><p>Rage Drake (Brute): +9 vs. AC; 1d10+4 (+11 vs. Ac; +9 when drake is bloodied)</p><p>Ghoul (Soldier): +12 vs. AC; 1d6+4/immob (+10 vs. AC; 3d6+4 vs. Immob)</p><p>Blazing Skeleton (Artillery): +8 vs. Reflex; 2d4+4 fire + ongoing 5 (Melee attack: +8 vs. AC; 1d4+4 + ongoing 5 <strong>however</strong>, blazing skeleton also has an aura 1 that deals auto 5 damage). </p><p></p><p>If the Maw is hit twice, it's gone. This is especially true of monsters with ongoing damage or aura damage (such as the blazing skeleton); if the Maw is hit with an ongoing damage effect, and it fails its first save, then that's 10 damage in the hole before factoring in any damage it took from the initial or subsequent attacks.</p><p></p><p>Furthermore, because this is a daily, the wizard will likely be summoning the Maw when he's in a fight worth using a daily - something above his level, or a fight that's harder. So the potential for the attack/damage coming his way is higher. </p><p></p><p><strong>My problem is thus</strong>, knowing this, how should I as a DM respond to summons? </p><p></p><p>On the one hand, this is a player using a <strong>Daily</strong>. I don't want to put a bullet through a daily within the first 1-2 rounds of combat. I want to offer it the option to shine. Once the Summons is dead, it's gone, and the spellcaster loses a healing surge.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, this weak little glass cannon is dropped into the middle of <em>melee</em> and starts attacking monsters. It just doesn't seem reasonable for monsters to avoid the thing. Even though the monster doesn't know the Summons has weak defenses/HP, it seems sort of dumb for the monster to avoid a new, scary looking threat dropped into melee with it to instead get out of melee (to possibly incur OAs) in order to attack the PCs. (Yes, I know that some times monsters shouldn't use the most sound strategy, because it shakes things up, is more fun, and not all monsters are smart. But that's meta-metagaming, and beyond my initial point). This is doubly true for the Druid summons, which are particularly nasty/eat-your-face. </p><p></p><p>It's completely reasonable, since the summons is in the middle of melee, for one or two attacks to come its way, and it's likely dead within 2 hits.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Rechan, post: 4670305, member: 54846"] [URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/248998-impact-characters-resistances.html"]As shown elsewhere[/URL], as a DM I metagame. Not to "win", but actually to give my players the mechanical benefit of the doubt. I.e. if a player has fire resistance, I'll make sure that character gets hit once or twice by a fire attack any time there is fire using monsters (but within reason so it's not unreasonable; not every fire attack will target that PC, and only the first or second from that monster before it wises up). With that said, I come to summoning. And as a DM, I'm not sure what to do. Summoning are dailies. Dailies are meant to change the game, to an extent - at least to have a big impact. Either to last a while (encounter-long effects), change the field (as far as controllers are concerned), or do some definite damage. The problem I see is that summons are glass cannons that might not do what they're meant to. [URL="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dramp/2009Feb"]From here[/URL] we know: For this experiment, I whipped up a 5th level wizard. With 14 con, he has a bloodied value of 18, and has AC 17 (+1 cloth). His 5th level daily is to summon an Abyssal Maw, a melee combatant with an AC of 17 and 18 HP (because that's how summoned creatures work). Let's look at 5th level opponents that the Maw will be facing. Rage Drake (Brute): +9 vs. AC; 1d10+4 (+11 vs. Ac; +9 when drake is bloodied) Ghoul (Soldier): +12 vs. AC; 1d6+4/immob (+10 vs. AC; 3d6+4 vs. Immob) Blazing Skeleton (Artillery): +8 vs. Reflex; 2d4+4 fire + ongoing 5 (Melee attack: +8 vs. AC; 1d4+4 + ongoing 5 [B]however[/B], blazing skeleton also has an aura 1 that deals auto 5 damage). If the Maw is hit twice, it's gone. This is especially true of monsters with ongoing damage or aura damage (such as the blazing skeleton); if the Maw is hit with an ongoing damage effect, and it fails its first save, then that's 10 damage in the hole before factoring in any damage it took from the initial or subsequent attacks. Furthermore, because this is a daily, the wizard will likely be summoning the Maw when he's in a fight worth using a daily - something above his level, or a fight that's harder. So the potential for the attack/damage coming his way is higher. [B]My problem is thus[/B], knowing this, how should I as a DM respond to summons? On the one hand, this is a player using a [B]Daily[/B]. I don't want to put a bullet through a daily within the first 1-2 rounds of combat. I want to offer it the option to shine. Once the Summons is dead, it's gone, and the spellcaster loses a healing surge. On the other hand, this weak little glass cannon is dropped into the middle of [I]melee[/I] and starts attacking monsters. It just doesn't seem reasonable for monsters to avoid the thing. Even though the monster doesn't know the Summons has weak defenses/HP, it seems sort of dumb for the monster to avoid a new, scary looking threat dropped into melee with it to instead get out of melee (to possibly incur OAs) in order to attack the PCs. (Yes, I know that some times monsters shouldn't use the most sound strategy, because it shakes things up, is more fun, and not all monsters are smart. But that's meta-metagaming, and beyond my initial point). This is doubly true for the Druid summons, which are particularly nasty/eat-your-face. It's completely reasonable, since the summons is in the middle of melee, for one or two attacks to come its way, and it's likely dead within 2 hits. [/QUOTE]
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