Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5248850" data-attributes="member: 82106">Honestly I think this whole argument is riddled with errors and suppositions. Lets analyze a particular summoning power and we'll see where the gray areas actually are. I'll pick Summon Fire Warrior, a fairly straightforward summoning.The PC summons the Fire Warrior. At this moment in time the rules tell the player to do the following things:Calculate defenses: these are equal to yours not counting temporary bonuses and penalties. This is pretty clear, anything that normally applies to you applies to the summons, so basically you take the numbers off your sheet and apply them to the fire warrior. Situational stuff and buffs with a duration simply don't count.Hit points etc: no real controversy here, this stuff is spelled out.Now, that's it. The Summon Fire Warrior power has the Implement keyword, but nothing indicates this really means much at this point. Neither the power nor the summoning rules mentions any effect that the Implement has at this point.In the next round the PC decides to attack with his fire warrior. It has an attack which is melee 1, Int vs Ref, etc. Note that it has no keywords, nor is it described as a power. The general summoning rules simply note that "If a summoning power allows the summoned creature to attack, you make an  attack through the creature, as specified in the power description. If  the summoned creature can make a skill check or an ability check, you  make the check. Attacks and checks you make through the creature do not  include temporary bonuses or penalties to your statistics."The question that inevitably arises here is in regard to implements. The standard interpretation is that the attack has the keywords of the summoning power, which means it has the Implement keyword. Now, some people have interpreted this to mean that the attack gets the benefits of the implement in use when the power was first used, and others that it gets the benefits of the implement the caster is wielding at the time of the attack (remember, the attack is made BY the caster). "temporary bonuses and penalties" however don't apply. Now the simplest interpretation of temporary in this context is something with a duration or relating to some state of the caster or situational to the caster. One can easily argue that what implement is being wielded falls into this category (I don't agree with that personally, but it can be legitimately argued) just like the fact that the caster might happen to be standing in the zone of Sanctified Ground is situational and not a permanent fact of the caster.The point is there are at least two points that are open to dispute here, which implement bonus applies and does one apply at all? As for the Flaming Sword, it would absolutely work. It's being used as an implement and the attack has the implement keyword. The wielder of the sword is making the attack. Thus the attack is eligible to have its attack type changed to fire. (obviously if its a fire warrior its redundant, but whatever). Now, all these issues have been debated and hashed out and a rough consensus seems to exist at the Q&A board that the implement the caster has in hand when making the attack counts. Which one was in hand when the power was used is simply irrelevant because there's simply nothing for it to enhance. This is still disputed however and not established incontrovertibly AFAIK (its possible there's a newer FAQ entry on it by now, I haven't reviewed them in a while).</blockquote>

Verification