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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5903662" data-attributes="member: 87792">I'm looking for feedback on both this and my other guide from people with more PF experience than I have.  I've some 3.X and a lot of 4e, but limited PF experience.Summoning Information - a guide to an alternate Eidolon  The orthodox way of playing the <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner" target="_blank">Summoner</a> class in Pathfinder is to create your <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/eidolons" target="_blank">Eidolon</a> as a melee beat stick that rivals the <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter" target="_blank">Fighter</a>  in power.  And then back it up with your own magic.  I prefer to play  my wizards as tricksters, and problem solvers, more inclined to working  round problems than to tackling them head on (although do not meddle in  the affairs of wizards for they have more than one way of making you  croak).Because  I prefer to have my wizards subtle rather than effective beatsticks,  and because I dislike wasting strong class features like Summon Monster,  I prefer to use the Eidolon as a <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue" target="_blank">Rogue</a> rather than a fighter.Summoner as Rogue  A  rogue is a skills centric class with 8+Int modifier skill points.  A  Summoner gets 2+Int and an Eidolon doesn’t even get an allocation each  level.  How do you make up the gap?Covering the Rogue’s Skills  First,  the Eidolon gets four skill points most levels.  The physical side of  being a rogue can be handled by three skills with three more being  useful.  Stealth.  Perception.  Disable Device.  Also helped by Bluff,  Disguise, and Sense Motive.  At four skill points per hit dice you can  afford to keep the first three of those at maximum ranks  And as an  Eidolon you simply don’t need the other useful rogue skills for scouting  and breaking and entering such as Climb and Swim.  Why would you?   Those are each one point evolutions and from fifth level you can fly.But what of the rest of the rogue’s skills?  The social skills and Use Magic Device?Those  are the ones not likely to get you killed immediately, so those are  where you, the Summoner, can excel.  You’re a Charisma-based class and  have both UMD and Speak Language on your class list.  Sense Motive,  Bluff, and Diplomacy alas, are not.  Which means intelligence is a very  important stat - you have five skills you want to cover in person and  only two skill points to do it (although bluff can easily be dropped if  the Eidolon is trying).  Int 14 as a human can cover all five.  And as a  Summoner, once you add your Eidolon’s skills into the equation you both  have about as many skill points as a Bard, Ranger, or Inquisitor, and  can ignore the need for many skills.Surpassing the Rogue’s Skills  As  a Summoner you don’t get Trapfinding - a fairly major loss if you’re  pretending to be a Rogue.  So to match the Rogue as a Rogue you need to  be able to go above and beyond.  You need an advantage over the Rogue.   Fortunately you have lots - I’m listing five below.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Eidolon is Expendible</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Eidolon can be Unsummoned</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Eidolon has superior senses</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Eidolon is more mobile</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Eidolon is simply more skilled</li> </ul>The Eidolon is expendable.   If  a rogue dies trying something risky, that’s it.  Kaput.  New character.   If the Eidolon dies, it’s … annoying.  But not a catastrophe - you can  just summon it back a day later.  This means the Eidolon can scout  places the Rogue wouldn’t dare - or plant things.The Eidolon can be Unsummoned If  you Dismiss the Eidolon, it gets sent back to its own plane with no  serious harm done - and that’s simply a standard action with no rule  saying the Eidolon has to be present.  Use <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/message" target="_blank">Message</a>  to keep in contact with it when it’s scouting.  And if the Eidolon is  trying to do something or grab something, have it use the Message to  tell you it needs extraction, Matrix-style.  At which point you dismiss  it.  And if it grabbed something you get it when you resummon the  Eidolon.  Otherwise it doesn’t have to worry about getting out, unlike a  rogue.  (It can also tell you when the alarm’s triggered - and at that  point if they don’t catch the Eidolon in the next six seconds you  dismiss it then resummon it next to you).  So as well as being  expendable the Eidolon is a lot safer than the rogue.  (As a minor note  it’s also tougher than the Rogue, having the hit point pool of both  itself and you to survive the round before you unsummon it). The Eidolon’s senses are superior to any rogue.   The  Eidolon starts with Dark Vision.  Only the best rogues have either Dark  Vision or Low Light vision (an extra point if you think you want it).   One point for Scent?  (And another to make tracking by scent  near-trivial). Two for Tremorsense (for when you’re not flying)?  Three  for Blindsense?  Four for Blindsight?  The Rogue only wishes (s)he had  that level of perception. The Eidolon has incredible mobility Climb  costs one point.  Swim one (and another for gills).  Fly two (or  preferably four) - and can be made absurdly fast..  The rogue is stuck  with rolling skills.  He’s simply out of his league unless the  spellcasters have been really nice.  Or makes do with magic items. The Eidolon has the raw numbers A  +8 to one skill costs one evolution point.  Even by twentieth level  (when the rogue has five more hit dice than the Eidolon) the rogue is  still three points behind the Eidolon on skill points at any skill the  Eidolon considers important enough to do this to (remember that the  Eidolon may have had the +8 ever since first level).  And even with the  lowest possible dexterity (a Biped Eidolon starts with only 12), an  Eidolon gain +2 to str and dex every five levels in addition to normal  advance points.  Plus they can gain more stats from evolution points.   So their numbers start ahead of the rogue anywhere they want to and  stay ahead from there.So  there are five solid reasons that the Eidolon beats the Rogue at all  the stealth aspects of the Rogue except finding specialist traps.  At  this point what’s left for the Rogue?  Sneak attack?  Even the tricks  don’t help much - three of them give you advantages when making climb  checks - something the Eidolon doesn’t need to do at all.  But we’ve  sacrificed almost all the Eidolon’s combat potential to make him  out-rogue the rogue.  What are we to do? Your combat skills - Summoning Monsters  The Summoner gets to cast <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/summon-monster" target="_blank">Summon Monster X</a>  as a spell like ability up to 3 + Charisma modifier times/day as long  as they don’t have an Eidolon summoned - this would be a difficult  choice if your Eidolon had any interest in combat at all.  Or to put  things another way, six times per day a summoner gets to cast a spell  that is as strong as a wizard could cast.  And because they can focus on  this, the mini-feat chain of <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-focus---final" target="_blank">Spell Focus (Conjuration)</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/augment-summoning---final" target="_blank">Augment Summoning</a>, <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/superior-summoning" target="_blank">Superior Summoning</a> can be bought by 5th level (3rd for a human).  I’ve written a separate <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/16dZ5SBQMS1Yi6531tXOkKE_rmXEwn4VFacOEQKiHA5E" target="_blank">guide to summoning monsters</a>.Remember that because you summon monsters as a standard not a full round action they get to act on the turn you summon them. If the Eidolon needs to fight  Then  it hasn’t been set up as a serious fight.  And an Eidolon can keep on  the natural attack cap up to level 14 with just a second pair of claws  (one hands, one feet), and a bite - these attacks aren’t that  impressive, however.  But there is one Eidolon build that doesn’t cost  many evolution points to set up and can chew through chaff very easily.   That’s the ‘Kali’ build with half a dozen arms (two evolution points  per pair), and the feats Weapon Proficiency: Shortsword (or any other  light weapon), <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/multiweapon-fighting-combat" target="_blank">Multiweapon Fighting</a>, and <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/double-slice-combat---final" target="_blank">Double Slice</a>.  Even so this is probably a bad call due to being the only build not to want large size. Effective Major OptionsRaces    Human  and Half-Elf are the two strong ones.  Human gives more skill points to  the Eidolon - but Half Elf has the advantage, giving the Eidolon an  extra evolution point every four levels (which gives +8 to a skill if  that’s the desired option).  Halflings are slightly weaker than humans -  not providing the human skill points. Specialist BuildsFirst Worlder  The First Worlder is normally a terrible  option.  It lowers the Eidolon’s BAB and hit points.  But you don’t  care too much about either, and it adds a few interesting monster  options.  No reason you shouldn’t (and you get to summon unicorns) and  it’s fluffy and fun.  Note that you don’t get Disable Device on your  Eidolon Skill List so you aren’t as  far ahead of the rogue as normal.  And this build suffers at low level  by not being able to summon Riding Dogs, and at high level by not being  able to summon demons or angels - which is where your best spells from  summoned creatures come from.Broodmaster There’s  one major reason to play a Broodmaster.  It allows you to make your  Eidolon small for +4 to stealth and to fit through smaller gaps.  And  then keep the other one near you to use as a weak bodyguard (as they  dismiss together there’s no reason you shouldn’t. Evolutionist No point to this and Transposition is useful for the Eidolon to scout, then take you there. Master Summoner Your Eidolon doesn’t get to fly until level 10.  I wouldn’t recommend this as it significantly weakens you at your primary role. Synthesist  The Eidolon has no skills or feats of its own.  Possibly for would-be beatsticks, but not for you. Multiclassing It’s a trap.  Just don’t do it as your Eidolon won’t advance. Build BasicsYour formBiped  Only form to come with arms - and the best shape for fitting in. Serpentine Highest dexterity.  Needs arms or tentacles but when it can fly, can look very cool. Aquatic Comes with the most free evolution points.  Are you planning to go underwater?  If not, Gills and Swim (2) aren’t much use. Quadruped No  one would believe a horse was really a rogue.  Still, a bad choice.   The two advantages to a quadruped are mount and pounce, and you don’t  need either.So biped is best here, with a serpentine being useful at higher levels. Suggested Eidolon Mutations and Skills1st Level  Mutations: Climb (1), Scent (1), Skilled (Stealth)Skills: Stealth (1) (+13), Perception (1) (+4), Disable Device (1) (+6), Survival (1) (+4)Comments:  You already have the stealth to beat the rogue and the maneuverability  to beat the rogue - and superior senses but aren’t anything like a  complete package yet.5th Level Mutations: Wingless Flight (4), Climb (1), Scent (1), Skilled (Stealth), Skilled (Perception)Skills:  Stealth (4) (+18), Perception (4) (+15), Disable Device (4) (+10),  Survival (1) (+4), Disguise (1) (+4), Sense Motive (1) (+4), Fly (1)  (+7)Comments:  The build is more or less together - this might be early to make the  switch to wingless flight depending how useful you found either Disable  Device or Tremorsense.  Your effective fly skill is at +15, allowing you  to hover without trouble - a good thing for a rogue (and why I didn’t  go for winged flight).  A hat of disguise is needed to make the disguise  score really work but it was anyway.10th Level  Mutations:  Aspect (-2)  Blindsense (3) (or see in darkness), Skilled (Disable  Device), Wingless Flight (4), Climb (1), Scent (1), Skilled (Stealth),  Skilled (Perception)Skills:  Stealth (8) (+25), Perception 8 (+19), Disable Device 8 (+25), Fly (1)  (+10), Survival (1) (+4), Disguise (1) (+4), Sense Motive (1) (+4),  Bluff (1) (+4), Use Magic Device (1) (+4), Diplomacy (1) (+4)Comments:  Without having touched your fly skill, you now effectively fly at +18  meaning you make the most complex maneuvers on a natural 2.  Your three  core rogue skills are several points above <a href="http://www.pathfinderdb.com/gamemaster-tools/npcs/1230-vanali-10th-level-elf-rogue" target="_blank">a competent level 10 rogue’s</a> (although they may match the numbers with magic items).15th Level Mutations:  Blindsight (4), Aspect (-2)  Blindsense (3) (or see in darkness),  Skilled (Disable Device), Wingless Flight (4), Climb (1), Scent (1),  Skilled (Stealth), Skilled (Perception), 2 points to tasteSkills:  Stealth (12) (+31), Perception 12 (+23), Disable Device 12 (+31), Fly  (1) (+12), Survival (1) (+4), Disguise (1) (+4), Sense Motive (1) (+4),  Bluff (1) (+4), Use Magic Device (1) (+4), Diplomacy (1) (+4), 3 points  in secondary skills to tasteComments:  You’re running out of things to do here and the rogue is catching up in  raw numbers.  at least catching up with being able to challenge the  Eidolon in raw numbers at what is supposed to be his area of expertise.  His stealth might even be better by now with advanced rogue tricks.  If he hasn’t died.</blockquote>

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