Summoning + xp

[darkadelphia]

If I recall correctly, in 3.x, a monsters who could summon buddies had this capability figured into its CR--thus, no xp for killing the summoned baddies. Is there an official rule for this in 4e? There are several monsters that summon minions, do the PCs get xp for each minion killed, or does the summoning monster's xp value take this into account.

I'm leaning towards the latter. A given monster (often an elite or solo) uses up a valuable spot on its list of powers in order to summon trash, I would think that its xp value takes this into account. Especially because it makes encounter design easier (you don't have to take xp out of the encounter in anticipation that the PCs will get "bonus" xp if the monster summons a good number of cronies).

 

[Kaelkatar]

Infernal Summons (standard; encounter)
The pit fiend summons a group of devil allies. Summoned devils
roll initiative to determine when they act in the initiative order
and gain a +4 bonus to attack rolls as long as the pit fiend is
alive. They remain until they are killed, dismissed by the pit fiend
(free action), or the encounter ends. PCs do not earn experience
points for killing these summoned creatures. The pit fiend
chooses to summon one of the following groups of devils:
✦ 8 legion devil legionnaires (level 21), or
✦ 2 war devils (level 22), or
✦ 1 war devil (level 22) and 4 legion devil legionnaires (level 21)

 

[darkadelphia]

so, given the exception based rules, I guess that means that most summoned creeps DO give xp, and the pit fiend's are an exception.

 

[Runestar]

so, given the exception based rules, I guess that means that most summoned creeps DO give xp, and the pit fiend's are an exception.

Which kinda defeats the purpose of giving said monster a summoning ability in the first place. If summons give xp, why even bother, when you just start the encounter with said creature in place, rather than explicitly have the monster in question summon it?

For instance, let's say the pit fiend's summons give xp. Why don't I just create a custom encounter involving it and 2 war devils, rather than wasting space in its entry stating that it may summon them in if it wishes?

From a "common-sense" POV, summons should not grant xp. Else, they would bre redundant.

 

[Mouseferatu]

so, given the exception based rules, I guess that means that most summoned creeps DO give xp, and the pit fiend's are an exception.

This doesn't make sense to me. Just because some general rules have specific exceptions, it doesn't even remotely automatically follow that every specific rule indicates an opposing general rule.

 

[Krensus]

In a related issue, what about the Skull Lord who can reanimate allies? Does the party gain additional xp for the creatures they have already slain but are raised to fight again?

 

[Mouseferatu]

In a related issue, what about the Skull Lord who can reanimate allies? Does the party gain additional xp for the creatures they have already slain but are raised to fight again?

I wouldn't think so. They're animated at way less than full strength--but I also think it'd say that they give XP twice, if they were intended to do so.

 

[Runestar]

In a related issue, what about the Skull Lord who can reanimate allies? Does the party gain additional xp for the creatures they have already slain but are raised to fight again?

I am guessing no as well. Else, the DM might as well just insert new copies of said creature to simulate it being raised. Everything will likely already have been factored into its xp budget. So if you are lucky, and can prevent it from raising any allies, you benefit. If it can get to use it to full benefit...than too bad.

 

[Kaelkatar]

In my opinion, XP is not for killing monsters, its for overcoming the encounter. Thus an encounter has a set value, clearing it gives full value, partial clears a portion depending on how the party does. If you assign XP values to summons and to reanimated baddies, then the idea of intimidating something or dealing with traps and hazards starts to get fuzzy and things start to break down.

 

[Krensus]

I wouldn't think so. They're animated at way less than full strength--but I also think it'd say that they give XP twice, if they were intended to do so.

The Skull Lord animates them at full hit points with no detrimental effects, even allowing them to stand as a free action and take actions normally on their next turn. I don't see anywhere where they are less powerful than normal.