Sundering a spellbook?

[Galethorn]

I was just reading the rules on sundering, and it effectively says that you can try to sunder any item that an enemy has, other than armor. This led me to an interesting question: what's the AC, hardness, and HP of a spell book? (and while we're at it, the same stats for a spell component pouch might be interesting.)

If it isn't too hard to sunder a wizard's spellbook or component pouch, I think I might have an ultimate solution to the problem of troublesome wizards. All you really need is an archer with a good hide skill, and flaming arrows. All you need to do is wait for them to cast all their spells (on fake enemies you paint on a wall, or whatever), then take out the book and component pouch. They'll obviously have spell mastery, but that's why you get rid of the component pouch.

I'm sure you could do the same with a high level rogue and Sleight of Hand, or even better with an arcane trickster, but that's beside the point. A wizard's real weakness isn't the low HP, but rather the vulnerable spellbook, and the reliance on his magic. Just think about what would happen if even a fairly high level wizard got alchemist's fire thrown on him! Or else just plain old lamp oil.

 

[Xarls Taunzund]

I'm suddenly very happy that my DM does not check this site. At least I don't think so. God I hope not.

 

[Galethorn]

Yeah, it wouldn't be very fun for a high level wizard with fifty some spells in his spellbook if an archer simply set his spell-related-stuff bag on fire with a flaming arrow...

Even scarier would be if you could "sunder" both of a wizard's hands...every single spell he ever cast would have to be Stilled...

I would never do any of these things to a wizard in any game I would DM, but I'd be quite pleased to sunder a BBEG's spellbook as a player...hmmm...might work better with a charge from hiding and an adamantine greatsword...

 

[da_deadman]

Why would the wizard have his spellbook out?

Also, ever hear of eschew materials?

All the wizard needs to do is bring the spellbook that has is most used spells I.E. worthless book and leave his BBOS (Big Book of Spells "Blessed Book" somewhere safe.

It gets better in epic, with ignore materials!

 

[Pax]

I was just reading the rules on sundering, and it effectively says that you can try to sunder any item that an enemy has, other than armor. This led me to an interesting question: what's the AC, hardness, and HP of a spell book? (and while we're at it, the same stats for a spell component pouch might be interesting.)

Magic of Faerun has an entire system of rules for this.

In settings where the DM goes after my spellbook, if I play a wizard, I like to spend LOTS of cash on my books. Metal cover, metal poil pages, slipcase ... and all of it self-repairing Living Metal! bwa ha ha!

If it isn't too hard to sunder a wizard's spellbook or component pouch, I think I might have an ultimate solution to the problem of troublesome wizards. All you really need is an archer with a good hide skill, and flaming arrows.

And the wizard has his spellbook out in the open during battle ... why,, exactly?

All you need to do is wait for them to cast all their spells (on fake enemies you paint on a wall, or whatever),

Any wizard stupid enough to fall for MEDIEVAL painted figures, doesn't deserve to be casting CANTRIPS, let alone real spells.

then take out the book and component pouch.

This assumes the book is around; once a wizard runs low on spells, if they'r ehigh-level, they teleport without error to their home (which could even be extraplanar!), where their spellbooks are.

They'll obviously have spell mastery, but that's why you get rid of the component pouch.

Not every spell has a material component. And, just because you nail the spell component pouch (SCP), doesn't mean the wizard is without all material components -- it just means that they aren't assumed to have non-costly components on them.

If Dufus the fire-wizard wants to keep sulphur and bat-guano hidden in his BEARD ... then, he can still pop off fireballs, even sans SCP.

I'm sure you could do the same with a high level rogue and Sleight of Hand, or even better with an arcane trickster, but that's beside the point. A wizard's real weakness isn't the low HP, but rather the vulnerable spellbook,

Where did you get the idea that the spellbook is even within fifty MILES of a moderate-to-high-level wizard?

and the reliance on his magic. Just think about what would happen if even a fairly high level wizard got alchemist's fire thrown on him! Or else just plain old lamp oil.

He'd laugh, because the act of attackinghim woudl trigger hsi Chain Contingency, while his Ring of Minor Universal Elemental Immunity would prevent any damage to him or his clothes and gear.

Then he'd blast you, and your descendants to teh seventh generation, into a fine ash.

I mean ... you DID say FAIRLY HIGH LEVEL wizard.

And even if you DID get his spellbook -- I woudl be surprised if any wizard of over 8th level or so didn't have at LEAST one full set of "backups". 10K for a BBB ... chump change, to a wizard.

 

[Galethorn]

Under sunder, it says

Sundering a Carried or Worn Object: You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

This of course means that any non-crazy-paranoid-neurotic-weirdo wizard (meaning any wizard that doesn't constantly piss off the other players and the DM) bellow about level 10 is going to be wearing at least one bag big enough carry his spellbook in. Now, if you want to get into the realm of truely high level wizards, then all you need is flaming arrows that cast MD whenever they hit. Or else brilliant energy adamantine arrows that cast disintegration when they hit. Or better yet, a magic item which has only one function: anti-magic aura around it all the time. I'm not sure what it would cost, but it would be within the reach of anyone the same level as a wizard who 10,000 gold is chump change to. And better yet, make it a cursed item so that they can't get rid of it (to be exact, if it ever ended up in anyone's pocket, it would teleport back into their pocket whenever they try to throw it away). Then all you have to do is get a high level rogue to put it in the offending wizard's pocket.

 

[Pax]

This of course means that any non-crazy-paranoid-neurotic-weirdo wizard (meaning any wizard that doesn't constantly piss off the other players and the DM) bellow about level 10 is going to be wearing at least one bag big enough carry his spellbook in.

Says who? My wizards tend to do their best to have a backup copy -- say, nice and safely on deposit with the Wizard's Guild. Benefit of membership, etc, etc. Worst a sundered spellbook at those levels would mean, is, a trip back to town to replace it.

Now, if you want to get into the realm of truely high level wizards, then all you need is flaming arrows that cast MD whenever they hit.

Never heard of such a thing. Besides, as I described above: my spellbooks, at high level, tend to be made of metal (which is not flammable), and the self-regenerative properties of Living Metal are an (Ex)traordinary ability, so, cannot be dispelled.

Of course, the books also tend to be glamered to look like something inocuous, like a bundle of iron rations, so even figuring out which item to nail, will be a difficult task in and of itself.

MoF's rules for spellbook construction are great stuff, imo.

Or else brilliant energy adamantine arrows that cast disintegration when they hit.

No such animal, and as a DM, I'd never approve them for ANYone. Those'd be ludicrous ... we're talking into the epic scale, there.

Or better yet, a magic item which has only one function: anti-magic aura around it all the time. I'm not sure what it would cost,[/b]

Roughly spell level x caster level times 2,000 gold, times 2 for a non-slotted item. So for AMF, 6x11x2000x2, or 266,000gp. More than a +10 adamantine weapon with which to simply whack the wizard repeatedly.

And, then, the wizard simply throws a Disjunction at it, and since it's unattended (or attended by him), it becomes permanentlynonmagical. Disjunction from a scroll works nicely.

make it a cursed item so that they can't get rid of it (to be exact, if it ever ended up in anyone's pocket, it would teleport back into their pocket whenever they try to throw it away). Then all you have to do is get a high level rogue to put it in the offending wizard's pocket.

Right; Disjunction again. Plus if it teleports w/o error (to avoid simple plane-hopping-to-avoid), it's going to be a LOT more expensive. Into the 500,000gp range, probably.

Alternately -- the wizard researches a permanency application for Antimagic Field, cast on an area (this might require a Greater Antimagic Field spell to be researched first). Meanwhile, he hires someone to cast Dimensional Lock, and drops the iteminside it briefly -- if it drops the AMF to teleport, it's blocked by the DimLock. Without dropping the AMF, it can't teleport. Look, the wizard has soem time available (and he makes usre he can recast the DimLock himself as needed, so he will have all the time he needs).

He casts a permanent antimagic field in a room, at least 20' by 20' by 20'. The cursed item is brought, and tossed into the room. When it's roughly in the middle of that 20' cube, the wizard (or hired help, if need be) casts forcecage, as a 10' windowless cell. Forcecage, like wall of force, is not impeded by an antimagic field -- but it blocks it's propagation. Now, he plants permanent antimagic fields all AROUND the cube, so noone can disintegrate their way in.

*POOF* problem solved. Forever.

And that's just assuming the wizard doesn't simply ARRANGE for a common pickpocket to STEAL the item itself. That cursed antimagic item would likely simply end up in the pocket of some eleven-year-old street urchin somewhere, anyway.

With all that said -- the best way to solve a "pesky wizard" problem is the same as it's always been: repeatedly stick a sharp object through him. Eventually, he'll stop screaming, and then you can have the body dealt with by whatever means float your boat.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

In any case, sundering with a bow--even a flaming one doesn't work too well. For one thing, objects take half damage from piercing weapons (as well as most elemental damage types). For another, sunder is a melee option only (not that you can't shoot objects with bows--just that it doesn't use the sunder mechanic).

 

[AuraSeer]

[A]ll you need is flaming arrows that cast MD whenever they hit. Or else brilliant energy adamantine arrows that cast disintegration when they hit. Or better yet, a magic item which has only one function: anti-magic aura around it all the time.

If you're inventing magic items of arbitrarily high power, why stop there? Just invent a "Rod of Permanently Removing Spellcasting Powers From Any Target."

Or, assuming you're the DM, just tell the player you don't like wizards and he needs to play something else. It'll have exactly the same effect, without all that tiresome mucking about in the rules.