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<blockquote data-quote="Empirate" data-source="post: 6082976" data-attributes="member: 78958">The relationship between Speed weapons and Haste, as well as Improved Critical and Keen weapons, are different cases in my book. Both explicitly spell out that they are NOT cumulative, unlike what is the case with Robilar's Gambit in combination with Karmic Strike and/or Defensive Throw. BTW, note how Defensive Throw has even more ambiguous rules text, in that it allows a free trip attempt, which uses up an AoO/round, but isn't itself spelled out to be an AoO... <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/ponder.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":hmm:" title="Hmmm&nbsp; &nbsp; :hmm:" data-shortname=":hmm:" />Fair enough, yourself! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I can see where you're coming from in your own gaming experience. My experience has fortunately been more with players who like to optimize a concept so it works similar to what they envision, than with players who like to powergame per se.The game balance thing wasn't about the infamous melee/caster divide, but about different fighting styles: two-weapon fighting is very much penalized in comparison to wielding a big-ass weapon two-handed. Also, the Fighter class itself rarely finds enough good stuff to do with its plethora of feats, which it gets instead of actually good class features, which is why I like Caelic's build among other things. Most people going for a melee build would probably throw a bunch of Crusader or Warblade, or Shadowpouncing, or ubercharging at the problem. Fighter 20 is rarely seen, and having it built in a way that is competitive (given certain DM decisions) is nice.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Empirate, post: 6082976, member: 78958"] The relationship between Speed weapons and Haste, as well as Improved Critical and Keen weapons, are different cases in my book. Both explicitly spell out that they are NOT cumulative, unlike what is the case with Robilar's Gambit in combination with Karmic Strike and/or Defensive Throw. BTW, note how Defensive Throw has even more ambiguous rules text, in that it allows a free trip attempt, which uses up an AoO/round, but isn't itself spelled out to be an AoO... :hmm: Fair enough, yourself! :) I can see where you're coming from in your own gaming experience. My experience has fortunately been more with players who like to optimize a concept so it works similar to what they envision, than with players who like to powergame per se. The game balance thing wasn't about the infamous melee/caster divide, but about different fighting styles: two-weapon fighting is very much penalized in comparison to wielding a big-ass weapon two-handed. Also, the Fighter class itself rarely finds enough good stuff to do with its plethora of feats, which it gets instead of actually good class features, which is why I like Caelic's build among other things. Most people going for a melee build would probably throw a bunch of Crusader or Warblade, or Shadowpouncing, or ubercharging at the problem. Fighter 20 is rarely seen, and having it built in a way that is competitive (given certain DM decisions) is nice. [/QUOTE]

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