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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 6400117" data-attributes="member: 957">I don't buy the premise of this statement.First of all, I think you are really selling short the value of &quot;campaign setting rules&quot; when taken in the context of this conversation.&nbsp; If you just grab some campaign guidance out of a WotC book, then yeah, I'd agree with you 100%.&nbsp; But if the DM is engaged and making rules to fit the campaign concepts (which the players may very well be better off not knowing) then it is an entirely different matter.&nbsp; And to play up the value of an engaged player makes sense.&nbsp; But to play that up with one breath while blowing off the value of a DM investing time and thought into the campaign is absurd.&nbsp; Invested players are great and they add to the game.&nbsp; If you have a highly invested DM and 4 &quot;show up and honestly play&quot; players (not &quot;invested&quot;, but not dragging anything down either), 9 times out of 10 you will have a better game than if there are 4 &quot;invested&quot; players and a &quot;show up and play&quot; DM.&nbsp; Again, not downplaying the players, but context and relative contribution are important here.I certainly would never say &quot;no evil characters&quot; without a reason.&nbsp; You gloss that over.&nbsp; If I'm saying that then no matter how good the sell, the answer is going to be &quot;that is awesome, lets do that next time.&quot;&nbsp; Lastly, I've never encountered a Boolean &quot;fully engaged player&quot;.&nbsp; I've found players who are creative and &quot;engaged&quot;.&nbsp; I've found good players who are much more passive.&nbsp; But the &quot;fully engaged players&quot; are just that.&nbsp; If one of them comes to me with an idea that doesn't fit (and this has, rarely, happened), they don't pout and go away, costing the game their invested value.&nbsp; They ask for feedback and come up with another idea that does fit and become fully invested in that.&nbsp; This construct of a fully invested player who will just abandon the game over a single character concept is a fiction designed to prop up an argument.&nbsp; (If you are personally seeing this problem then I'm rather certain that there is more to the story.&nbsp; And with the complaints you have offered in the past, that would not seem unlikely).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 6400117, member: 957"] I don't buy the premise of this statement. First of all, I think you are really selling short the value of "campaign setting rules" when taken in the context of this conversation. If you just grab some campaign guidance out of a WotC book, then yeah, I'd agree with you 100%. But if the DM is engaged and making rules to fit the campaign concepts (which the players may very well be better off not knowing) then it is an entirely different matter. And to play up the value of an engaged player makes sense. But to play that up with one breath while blowing off the value of a DM investing time and thought into the campaign is absurd. Invested players are great and they add to the game. If you have a highly invested DM and 4 "show up and honestly play" players (not "invested", but not dragging anything down either), 9 times out of 10 you will have a better game than if there are 4 "invested" players and a "show up and play" DM. Again, not downplaying the players, but context and relative contribution are important here. I certainly would never say "no evil characters" without a reason. You gloss that over. If I'm saying that then no matter how good the sell, the answer is going to be "that is awesome, lets do that next time." Lastly, I've never encountered a Boolean "fully engaged player". I've found players who are creative and "engaged". I've found good players who are much more passive. But the "fully engaged players" are just that. If one of them comes to me with an idea that doesn't fit (and this has, rarely, happened), they don't pout and go away, costing the game their invested value. They ask for feedback and come up with another idea that does fit and become fully invested in that. This construct of a fully invested player who will just abandon the game over a single character concept is a fiction designed to prop up an argument. (If you are personally seeing this problem then I'm rather certain that there is more to the story. And with the complaints you have offered in the past, that would not seem unlikely). [/QUOTE]

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