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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="The-Magic-Sword" data-source="post: 8625044" data-attributes="member: 6801252"><p>Actually, this sort of speaks to me that maybe the crux of the problem is the separation of "narrative" and "challenge" as being different goals, games like DND which have this sense of triumph, generally tell the kinds of stories in which the player aligns themselves with their character and party which all have the same objective, the narrative being invoked is that of working toward, succeeding, or failing at the objective and all the obstacles and thematic questions that come up along the way. In the course of this, the Players-Inhabiting-Characters interact with a space rich with narrative elements that they can utilize, react to, prod, and play off of (in other words, the setting.) </p><p></p><p>The impulse of separation between the joy of problem solving, and the joy of narrative is itself in contention, because to many of the people playing DND, they're likely the same thing-- the story, like a good episode of Star Trek or Supernatural, is about how we overcame the problem (or met our objective, more generally), and about the things we discovered along the way, and how they intrigue us or how we reacted to it. That does get you to stories, Man vs. [Blank], that blank might be a dragon, or a need for treasure, or an oppressive empire-- how you contend with it is the story. The game elements you use to indulge a 'challenge' mind set (class, spells, weapons), are also the tools that you use to solve the problem in the story, the difference in their efficacy is part of the narrative space and the narrative context of the choices one makes.</p><p></p><p>I think what DND does, in terms of embracing challenge in the way you discuss, is to <em>externalize </em>the story, the characters of the story still have internal conflict, but the pressure is coming from the external elements of the story, e.g. your cleric might have a crisis of faith, but thats mediated through their relationship with their God, which is external and played by the GM. This controlled adversarial relationship, is how DND positions your Man vs. [blank] and tells its stories, and then embraces that conflict as a problem that you as the player, and you as the character are attempting to solve in the physical reality of the game world.</p><p></p><p>I've brought up how the cultures of play can be discussed as artistic movements in the past, so it leads me to question, are we really discussing how the language that we're using <em>shapes </em>how we construct stories through the game, from the perspective of different movements with differing language, and therefore frames of reference for what is ultimately necessary (or preferred) for the products of those movements (being the 'games' or 'systems' or 'stories' which are then firmly interrelated concepts.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The-Magic-Sword, post: 8625044, member: 6801252"] Actually, this sort of speaks to me that maybe the crux of the problem is the separation of "narrative" and "challenge" as being different goals, games like DND which have this sense of triumph, generally tell the kinds of stories in which the player aligns themselves with their character and party which all have the same objective, the narrative being invoked is that of working toward, succeeding, or failing at the objective and all the obstacles and thematic questions that come up along the way. In the course of this, the Players-Inhabiting-Characters interact with a space rich with narrative elements that they can utilize, react to, prod, and play off of (in other words, the setting.) The impulse of separation between the joy of problem solving, and the joy of narrative is itself in contention, because to many of the people playing DND, they're likely the same thing-- the story, like a good episode of Star Trek or Supernatural, is about how we overcame the problem (or met our objective, more generally), and about the things we discovered along the way, and how they intrigue us or how we reacted to it. That does get you to stories, Man vs. [Blank], that blank might be a dragon, or a need for treasure, or an oppressive empire-- how you contend with it is the story. The game elements you use to indulge a 'challenge' mind set (class, spells, weapons), are also the tools that you use to solve the problem in the story, the difference in their efficacy is part of the narrative space and the narrative context of the choices one makes. I think what DND does, in terms of embracing challenge in the way you discuss, is to [I]externalize [/I]the story, the characters of the story still have internal conflict, but the pressure is coming from the external elements of the story, e.g. your cleric might have a crisis of faith, but thats mediated through their relationship with their God, which is external and played by the GM. This controlled adversarial relationship, is how DND positions your Man vs. [blank] and tells its stories, and then embraces that conflict as a problem that you as the player, and you as the character are attempting to solve in the physical reality of the game world. I've brought up how the cultures of play can be discussed as artistic movements in the past, so it leads me to question, are we really discussing how the language that we're using [I]shapes [/I]how we construct stories through the game, from the perspective of different movements with differing language, and therefore frames of reference for what is ultimately necessary (or preferred) for the products of those movements (being the 'games' or 'systems' or 'stories' which are then firmly interrelated concepts.) [/QUOTE]
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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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