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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8625597" data-attributes="member: 42582">I think I referred to reinforcement of the experiencing of the fiction for its own sake.Torchbearer makes it an overt goal for the player to keep their PC alive. You character can die from hypothermia and its consequences. So when the GM tells you about the rain and the cold, you are not experiencing the fiction for its own sake. You have a concern: keep my PC alive. You know that there is a rules framework - the Grind - and its interaction with the rules for failed tests - which means that your PC could die. So you start thinking about ways of keeping your PC alive. Do I have a cloak? If I put it on, how does that affect my inventory load-out? Is there another, or better, way to get the buff against rain and cold that I would get from my cloak?This is related to what [USER=71235]@niklinna[/USER] posted, upthread, about the &quot;heavy&quot; and the &quot;intrusive&quot; nature of the mechanics, but it's not just that. It's about the rationale that drives the engagement with the fiction. It is not being experienced for its own sake. And the player's concern about hypothermia and death is not flowing from an experiential immersion in their PC and in the fiction the GM is narrating. It's driven by a grasp of the way the game sets up challenges and consequences and demands that resources be managed. It's comparable to the way that a player of classic D&amp;D would worry about wandering monsters. That's neither a result of, nor a concern to, experience the fiction for its own sake!Sure. The game is nicely designed, and its colour is spectacular.But the game is not deigned to generate a reinforcement of the experience of the fiction for its own sake. And I think trying to play it in that fashion would tend to produce an untenably high rate of PC death.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8625597, member: 42582"] I think I referred to [i]reinforcement of the experiencing of the fiction for its own sake[/i]. Torchbearer makes it an overt goal for the player to keep their PC alive. You character can die from hypothermia and its consequences. So when the GM tells you about the rain and the cold, you are not experiencing the fiction for its own sake. You have a concern: keep my PC alive. You know that there is a rules framework - the Grind - and its interaction with the rules for failed tests - which means that your PC could die. So you start thinking about ways of keeping your PC alive. Do I have a cloak? If I put it on, how does that affect my inventory load-out? Is there another, or better, way to get the buff against rain and cold that I would get from my cloak? This is related to what [USER=71235]@niklinna[/USER] posted, upthread, about the "heavy" and the "intrusive" nature of the mechanics, but it's not just that. It's about the rationale that drives the engagement with the fiction. It is not being experienced for its own sake. And the player's concern about hypothermia and death is not flowing from an experiential immersion in their PC and in the fiction the GM is narrating. It's driven by a grasp of the way the game sets up challenges and consequences and demands that resources be managed. It's comparable to the way that a player of classic D&D would worry about wandering monsters. That's neither a result of, nor a concern to, experience the fiction for its own sake! Sure. The game is nicely designed, and its colour is spectacular. But the game is not deigned to generate a reinforcement of the experience of the fiction for its own sake. And I think trying to play it in that fashion would tend to produce an untenably high rate of PC death. [/QUOTE]

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