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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8627091" data-attributes="member: 82106">OK, lets look at it all again. First of all it isn't just 'buried in the DMG', quests are referenced in 2 places in the PHB1. On p172 the 'Destiny Quest' is defined, which is a specific mighty quest which a 30th level PC is intended to undertake, and which leads to their Apotheosis. Now, it doesn't say here that these must be, or even specifically are normally, player authored, but it is described in terms which indicate that players are entitled to input, and by selecting a particular ED they are inherently putting certain options on the table (Each ED has a section which describes possible character fates).PHB1 p258 is a page long discussion of quests, and includes a paragraph explaining how they can be player-authored and how quests function within the story of a character. The other paragraphs are also written in terms of quests potentially arising from multiple sources, describing players "figuring out a quest" and other such language. Yes, there is a "with your GM's permission" statement in that paragraph, and again 4e is REPLETE with repetitions of 'say yes', so the GM has to directly defy the principles espoused by the game in order to NOT allow player quests. Frankly I think these sorts of statements were inserted at the insistence of product management to start with, probably due to a fear of the exact reaction they got in the end anyway. Then we have the material in the DMG. The term 'quest' appears something like 50 times in the DMG in multiple places, including adventure design, story arc and campaign discussions, as well as in discussions of things like the climax of a campaign and Destiny Quests. These things are not described as minor optional components of play, and there are about 4 pages in the DMG devoted to various aspects of quests! Yes, the section "Player-Designed Quests" is a mere paragraph, but it is given a full subsection header and appears in the ToC and the index. The paragraph seems quite sufficient to provide whatever information is needed, mostly it just notes that this is a thing, it should be both allowed AND encouraged in play. Presumably player-designed quests are otherwise functionally identical to other quests and could be minor, major, destiny, etc. depending on the situation.So, the quest mechanic itself has 2x more page space than the rules on improvised actions (which take up pages 42 and 43)! In fact it has as much space as the core advice on encounter design! Sure, you can elide a lot of things from a game, people ignored Skill Challenges too, but IMHO when you leave all this stuff out of play, you are REALLY NOT playing the game that was designed, you're playing something else. And sure enough, the people who elided all that stuff then went on and harshly criticized the game for lacking exactly the things they chose to leave out! Go figure...</blockquote>

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