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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 8628520" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>As a basic point, which I think that gets lost here, is that any discussion of "fairness" pretty much drifts the game into Gamist agendas. Look at the 3e rules for Level Adjustment for races. From a sim perspective, there's no reason why a Fire Giant fighter needs many times more xp to advance to 2nd level than a Human fighter. It's not like Fire Giants are stupid or cannot learn. They are quite intelligent, according to the game, and are perfectly capable of learning. </p><p></p><p>So, why does it take thousands more XP for my Fire Giant Fighter to level up to level 2 than your Human fighter? Well, in a word, fairness. It wouldn't be fair to let my character, with it's huge advantages, advance at the same pace as yours. It's absolutely not balanced. The 2e Complete Humanoids rules were brutal for this. I could play an Ogre fighter, say, start at 1st level with an Ogre's HP, and then advance at the same speed as a Human. Once my class HP (which I roll at each level) exceed my "natural" HP, I start gaining more HP. There's no disadvantage whatsoever for playing an ogre (well, other than Int I suppose) compared to playing a Human. An Ogre (or Minotaur, which is even more ridiculously broken) fighter is just flat out better than a Human one.</p><p></p><p>Which, IMO, is where the very strong resistance to non-standard races comes from. At least, a big part of it is from there. DM's are so worried that some non-standard race will be "broken".</p><p></p><p>And, there's that word again - broken. Which is a purely Gamist consideration based on fairness.</p><p></p><p>[USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] repeatedly points to how we should look at how 5e enthusiasts talk about the game. Well, okay, let's do that shall we? How many threads about this or that being broken/over/under powered are there? A few? A once in a blue moon conversation that rarely rears it's head? </p><p></p><p>No. Game balance threads are a weekly, if not daily discussion. Hell, we have WotC banging out Unearthed Arcana articles SPECIFICALLY to call attention to balance issues. There was a two year period of play testing where the overwhelming majority of conversation was dominated by balance issues. </p><p></p><p>So, yeah, I'll agree with [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] here. We absolutely should look at what 5e players talk about when talking about 5e to see where the agenda is. And, it's dead, smack bang on center in Gamist agendas.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 8628520, member: 22779"] As a basic point, which I think that gets lost here, is that any discussion of "fairness" pretty much drifts the game into Gamist agendas. Look at the 3e rules for Level Adjustment for races. From a sim perspective, there's no reason why a Fire Giant fighter needs many times more xp to advance to 2nd level than a Human fighter. It's not like Fire Giants are stupid or cannot learn. They are quite intelligent, according to the game, and are perfectly capable of learning. So, why does it take thousands more XP for my Fire Giant Fighter to level up to level 2 than your Human fighter? Well, in a word, fairness. It wouldn't be fair to let my character, with it's huge advantages, advance at the same pace as yours. It's absolutely not balanced. The 2e Complete Humanoids rules were brutal for this. I could play an Ogre fighter, say, start at 1st level with an Ogre's HP, and then advance at the same speed as a Human. Once my class HP (which I roll at each level) exceed my "natural" HP, I start gaining more HP. There's no disadvantage whatsoever for playing an ogre (well, other than Int I suppose) compared to playing a Human. An Ogre (or Minotaur, which is even more ridiculously broken) fighter is just flat out better than a Human one. Which, IMO, is where the very strong resistance to non-standard races comes from. At least, a big part of it is from there. DM's are so worried that some non-standard race will be "broken". And, there's that word again - broken. Which is a purely Gamist consideration based on fairness. [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] repeatedly points to how we should look at how 5e enthusiasts talk about the game. Well, okay, let's do that shall we? How many threads about this or that being broken/over/under powered are there? A few? A once in a blue moon conversation that rarely rears it's head? No. Game balance threads are a weekly, if not daily discussion. Hell, we have WotC banging out Unearthed Arcana articles SPECIFICALLY to call attention to balance issues. There was a two year period of play testing where the overwhelming majority of conversation was dominated by balance issues. So, yeah, I'll agree with [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] here. We absolutely should look at what 5e players talk about when talking about 5e to see where the agenda is. And, it's dead, smack bang on center in Gamist agendas. [/QUOTE]
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