Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8629499" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't think this is true, or fair.</p><p></p><p>From <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/narr_essay.html" target="_blank">here</a>, written in 2003:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The Threefold Model for role-playing included the term Dramatism, as presented by John Kim at his Threefold Model (<a href="http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/" target="_blank">http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/</a>) webpage. When I learned about the Threefold, I'd already been thinking about stuff I'd later call Currency and also about Jonathan Tweet's discussion of resolution presented in <em>Everway</em>. The basic notion of the Threefold impressed me: it was time to talk about goals and priorities independently of everything else, then to see whether everything else flowed to and from them. This was at the time that <em>Sorcerer</em> was making its small way into commerce, so the mailing list was the place for our first discussions; most of them are archived at the <em>Sorcerer</em> website (<a href="http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/" target="_blank">http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com</a>).</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">At this point, since "Drama" as a resolution category in Tweet's schema and "Dramatism" as a goals-category in the Threefold referred to two different things, I decided that the names were confusing. Going by which set of ideas was first presented (Tweet's), I changed Dramatism to Narrativism. This terminological change was limited to discussions on the <em>Sorcerer</em> mailing list and later at the Gaming Outpost.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">However, our use of the terms and ideas on the <em>Sorcerer</em> mailing list took on its own character almost immediately</p><p></p><p>From <a href="http://" target="_blank">here</a>, written in the latter part of 2001:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><strong>Simulationism</strong> is expressed by enhancing one or more of the listed elements in Set 1 above; in other words, Simulationism heightens and focuses Exploration as the priority of play. The players may be greatly concerned with the internal logic and experiential consistency of that Exploration.</li> </ul><p>The "listed elements in Set 1" are <a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/2/" target="_blank">"<strong>Character</strong>, <strong>System</strong>, <strong>Setting</strong>, <strong>Situation</strong>, and <strong>Color</strong>."</a></p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/" target="_blank">Here</a>, early in 2003, he adds that "Obviously the thing to do is to get as clear an understanding of "Exploration" as possible. It's our jargon term for imagining, "dreaming" if you will, about made-up characters in made-up situations. It's central to all role-playing, but in Simulationist play, it's the top priority."</p><p></p><p>There is no <em>burying</em> of the idea of drama. There is (i) a resolution of a terminological conflict, and (ii) an attempt to analyse what is involved in "drama"-oriented RPGing.</p><p></p><p>One of the principal phenomena that Edwards wants to understand is the sorts of conflict that are generated by classic D&D alignment, dark side points, Vampire metaplots, etc - ie play expectations and associated techniques that seem to reliably cause conflicts over <em>who gets to decide</em> these matters that are central to play.</p><p></p><p>In the early 2003 essay he says the following about the <em>simulationist</em> approach to "drama", under the heading <em>High Concept</em>:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">In cinema, "High Concept" refers to any film idea that can be pitched in a very limited amount of time; the usual method uses references to other films. Sometimes, although not necessarily, it's presented as a combination: "Jaws meets Good Will Hunting," or that sort of thing. I'm adopting it to role-playing without much modification, although emphasizing that the source references can come from any medium and also that the two-title combo isn't always employed.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">The key word is "genre," which in this case refers to a certain combination of the five elements as well as an unstated Theme. How do they get to this goal? All rely heavily on inspiration or kewlness as the big motivator, to get the content processed via art, prose style, and more. "Story," in this context, refers to the sequence of events that provide a payoff in terms of recognizing and enjoying the genre during play.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">This sort of game design will be familiar to almost anyone, represented by Arrowflight (Setting), Pax Draconis (Setting), Godlike (Setting), Sun & Storm (Setting + Situation), Dreamwalker (Situation), The Godsend Agenda (Character-Setting tug-of-war), The Collectors (applied Fudge, Situation + Character), Heartquest (applied Fudge; Character), Children of the Sun (Setting), Fvlminata (Setting), and Dread (Situation + Character), Fading Suns (Setting), Earthdawn (Setting), Space: 1889 (Setting), Mutant Chronicles (Setting), Mage first edition (Character), Mage second edition (Setting), Ironclaw (Setting), and Continuum (Setting with a touch of System). Many Fantasy Heartbreakers fall into this category, almost all Setting-based. Some of the best-known games of this type include Tekumel, Jorune, Traveller (specifically in its mid-80s through mid-90s form), Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon, Nephilim, Feng Shui, the various secondary settings for AD&D2 like Al-Qadim, and quite a few D20 or WEG games which rely on licensing. I am coming to think of D20 as a kind of High Concept chassis, a very new and interesting development in RPG design.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Also, most incoherent game designs are partly or even primarily High Concept Simulationist as well, with AD&D2 and Vampire (first edition) as the best-known examples.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">At first glance, these games might look like additions to or specifications of the Purist for System design, mainly through plugging in a fixed Setting. However, I think that impression isn't accurate, and that the five elements are very differently related. The formula starts with one of Character, Situation, or Setting, with lots of Color, then the other two (Character, Situation, or Setting, whichever weren't in first place), with System being last in priority.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">I also recommend examining Theme carefully. In this game, it's present and accounted for already, before play. The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way.</p><p></p><p>That's analysis, not burying! And expressly draws the contrast with purist-for-system/"process sim".</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8629499, member: 42582"] I don't think this is true, or fair. From [URL='http://www.indie-rpgs.com/_articles/narr_essay.html']here[/URL], written in 2003: [INDENT]The Threefold Model for role-playing included the term Dramatism, as presented by John Kim at his Threefold Model ([URL]http://www.darkshire.net/~jhkim/rpg/theory/[/URL]) webpage. When I learned about the Threefold, I'd already been thinking about stuff I'd later call Currency and also about Jonathan Tweet's discussion of resolution presented in [I]Everway[/I]. The basic notion of the Threefold impressed me: it was time to talk about goals and priorities independently of everything else, then to see whether everything else flowed to and from them. This was at the time that [I]Sorcerer[/I] was making its small way into commerce, so the mailing list was the place for our first discussions; most of them are archived at the [I]Sorcerer[/I] website ([URL='http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com/']http://www.sorcerer-rpg.com[/URL]).[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]At this point, since "Drama" as a resolution category in Tweet's schema and "Dramatism" as a goals-category in the Threefold referred to two different things, I decided that the names were confusing. Going by which set of ideas was first presented (Tweet's), I changed Dramatism to Narrativism. This terminological change was limited to discussions on the [I]Sorcerer[/I] mailing list and later at the Gaming Outpost.[/INDENT] [INDENT][/INDENT] [INDENT]However, our use of the terms and ideas on the [I]Sorcerer[/I] mailing list took on its own character almost immediately[/INDENT] From [URL='http://']here[/URL], written in the latter part of 2001: [LIST] [*][B]Simulationism[/B] is expressed by enhancing one or more of the listed elements in Set 1 above; in other words, Simulationism heightens and focuses Exploration as the priority of play. The players may be greatly concerned with the internal logic and experiential consistency of that Exploration. [/LIST] The "listed elements in Set 1" are [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/2/]"[B]Character[/B], [B]System[/B], [B]Setting[/B], [B]Situation[/B], and [B]Color[/B]."[/url] [url=http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/15/]Here[/url], early in 2003, he adds that "Obviously the thing to do is to get as clear an understanding of "Exploration" as possible. It's our jargon term for imagining, "dreaming" if you will, about made-up characters in made-up situations. It's central to all role-playing, but in Simulationist play, it's the top priority." There is no [i]burying[/i] of the idea of drama. There is (i) a resolution of a terminological conflict, and (ii) an attempt to analyse what is involved in "drama"-oriented RPGing. One of the principal phenomena that Edwards wants to understand is the sorts of conflict that are generated by classic D&D alignment, dark side points, Vampire metaplots, etc - ie play expectations and associated techniques that seem to reliably cause conflicts over [i]who gets to decide[/i] these matters that are central to play. In the early 2003 essay he says the following about the [i]simulationist[/i] approach to "drama", under the heading [i]High Concept[/i]: [indent]In cinema, "High Concept" refers to any film idea that can be pitched in a very limited amount of time; the usual method uses references to other films. Sometimes, although not necessarily, it's presented as a combination: "Jaws meets Good Will Hunting," or that sort of thing. I'm adopting it to role-playing without much modification, although emphasizing that the source references can come from any medium and also that the two-title combo isn't always employed. The key word is "genre," which in this case refers to a certain combination of the five elements as well as an unstated Theme. How do they get to this goal? All rely heavily on inspiration or kewlness as the big motivator, to get the content processed via art, prose style, and more. "Story," in this context, refers to the sequence of events that provide a payoff in terms of recognizing and enjoying the genre during play. This sort of game design will be familiar to almost anyone, represented by Arrowflight (Setting), Pax Draconis (Setting), Godlike (Setting), Sun & Storm (Setting + Situation), Dreamwalker (Situation), The Godsend Agenda (Character-Setting tug-of-war), The Collectors (applied Fudge, Situation + Character), Heartquest (applied Fudge; Character), Children of the Sun (Setting), Fvlminata (Setting), and Dread (Situation + Character), Fading Suns (Setting), Earthdawn (Setting), Space: 1889 (Setting), Mutant Chronicles (Setting), Mage first edition (Character), Mage second edition (Setting), Ironclaw (Setting), and Continuum (Setting with a touch of System). Many Fantasy Heartbreakers fall into this category, almost all Setting-based. Some of the best-known games of this type include Tekumel, Jorune, Traveller (specifically in its mid-80s through mid-90s form), Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon, Nephilim, Feng Shui, the various secondary settings for AD&D2 like Al-Qadim, and quite a few D20 or WEG games which rely on licensing. I am coming to think of D20 as a kind of High Concept chassis, a very new and interesting development in RPG design. Also, most incoherent game designs are partly or even primarily High Concept Simulationist as well, with AD&D2 and Vampire (first edition) as the best-known examples. At first glance, these games might look like additions to or specifications of the Purist for System design, mainly through plugging in a fixed Setting. However, I think that impression isn't accurate, and that the five elements are very differently related. The formula starts with one of Character, Situation, or Setting, with lots of Color, then the other two (Character, Situation, or Setting, whichever weren't in first place), with System being last in priority. I also recommend examining Theme carefully. In this game, it's present and accounted for already, before play. The process of prep-play-enjoy works by putting "what you want" in, then having "what you want" come out, with the hope that the System's application doesn't change anything along the way.[/indent] That's analysis, not burying! And expressly draws the contrast with purist-for-system/"process sim". [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
Top