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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8633337" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Well what about the (as I've mentioned elsewhere) "layering" or "embedding" of these things in different steps of the process of play?</p><p></p><p>E.g., people speak of 4e as working (quite well!) as a "Story Now" game, and yet none of what they're doing seems to in any way detract from the <em>really really </em>"Gamist" elements involved in the actual process of playing through combats. From what I've been reading, it sounds very much like when actively engaged in a <em>fight</em> 4e play becomes very Gamist, but once the fighting is done (win, lose, draw, or retreat), the play returns to being "in the fiction" as Dungeon World would put it. That's embedding--like taking a quick dive, just long enough to accomplish something, and then returning to the surface.</p><p></p><p>I could similarly see a game being designed such that it has a (perhaps videogamey?) distinction between "overworld"-type and zoomed-in/"location"-type play. That's what I would call "layered," where the two layers are separate stances or processes. Each individually focused on its stuff, you switch between them as needed, as opposed to the above "embedded" relationship. If, say, "high" Gygaxian hexcrawl D&D had had a consciously Conceit-and-Emulation/"High Concept" Sim stance in the actual explore-the-hexes parts of play (e.g., trying to resemble pulpy action-adventure stories, opposed to the Score-and-Achievement/Gamist process of carefully managing your logistics, coordination, and SOPs), I don't see how that would have totally borked the remaining <em>very consciously</em> Gamist parts within the dungeons themselves. It'd just be a clear mode switch between the "overworld" layer, where Conceit is king, and the "dungeon" layer, where you're keeping Score.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8633337, member: 6790260"] Well what about the (as I've mentioned elsewhere) "layering" or "embedding" of these things in different steps of the process of play? E.g., people speak of 4e as working (quite well!) as a "Story Now" game, and yet none of what they're doing seems to in any way detract from the [I]really really [/I]"Gamist" elements involved in the actual process of playing through combats. From what I've been reading, it sounds very much like when actively engaged in a [I]fight[/I] 4e play becomes very Gamist, but once the fighting is done (win, lose, draw, or retreat), the play returns to being "in the fiction" as Dungeon World would put it. That's embedding--like taking a quick dive, just long enough to accomplish something, and then returning to the surface. I could similarly see a game being designed such that it has a (perhaps videogamey?) distinction between "overworld"-type and zoomed-in/"location"-type play. That's what I would call "layered," where the two layers are separate stances or processes. Each individually focused on its stuff, you switch between them as needed, as opposed to the above "embedded" relationship. If, say, "high" Gygaxian hexcrawl D&D had had a consciously Conceit-and-Emulation/"High Concept" Sim stance in the actual explore-the-hexes parts of play (e.g., trying to resemble pulpy action-adventure stories, opposed to the Score-and-Achievement/Gamist process of carefully managing your logistics, coordination, and SOPs), I don't see how that would have totally borked the remaining [I]very consciously[/I] Gamist parts within the dungeons themselves. It'd just be a clear mode switch between the "overworld" layer, where Conceit is king, and the "dungeon" layer, where you're keeping Score. [/QUOTE]
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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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