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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="Crimson Longinus" data-source="post: 8634272" data-attributes="member: 7025508"><p>The issue we have is this. I ask what's the difference between A and B. You respond A has X, B doesn't. But to me it seems that B does have X (or at least can have,) so either I have misunderstood what you mean by X or you have misunderstood what B entails. And I'm trying to figure out which it is.</p><p></p><p>Put let's look at the example.</p><p></p><p></p><p>First. Knight-errantry type stuff in medieval Europe (perhaps inspired by actual Prince Valiant comics and other fiction of similar genre) seems to be the premise. I would assume that this at least implicitly informs the things the players declare their characters will do. A thing you insisted is a hallmark of a non-story-now game. So I'm puzzled.</p><p></p><p>Second. Apart the use of the actual historical setting instead of a fantasy one, absolutely nothing in this would be out of place as a description of someone's D&D game. (Or Exalted game, or indeed most games.) It seems like a blast. Exactly the sort of thing I mean when I talked about having characters with motivation to do stuff and GM who lets them.</p><p></p><p>Now if we zoomed in more we might see actual differences. Like how and why were the personality and the motives of the Byzantine Emperor decided? How was it decided that there even are some Robin Hoody bandits, or what's going on at Cyprus? But overall it seems just like a normal character driven play in an established setting that can and does take place in most games.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I see more marked differences in this example, but I'm afraid properly contextualising them would require greater familiarity with the Burning Wheel system. (Which I used to know, but have forgotten most, and I'm not going to refamiliarise myself for the sake of this conversation.) The differences I note seem mostly be related to how certain decision that would in other styles would be made by the GM (and even some by the player) are offloaded to the system, and that the player seems to be able to use the system to 'compel' certain things to be decided and defined.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not claiming my style is fully character driven. It is not, as that is not my preference, but it is an amalgam of that and preplanned elements. The characters are free to roam the world, there is stuff that is happening in the world independent of them. Some situations they encounter may be be such that they're likely to elicit rather expected response, (so more plothooky, you might say) some are just stuff that's going on and there is no expected response. ("expected" here only in a sense that I anticipate what is likely, not in any prescriptive sense.) And of course the players are perfectly free to come up with their own goals. In the last game when they were looking for spell components they needed at a bazaar, the rogue decided to look for people who seemed wealthy. Then they gathered some info on these rich folks from the locals, including where they live. It seems quite possible that in next session some burglary will ensue.</p><p></p><p>And this is small scale stuff, but they're low level. And I fully intend to embrace the concept of 'from zero to hero' and should they survive to become powerful mythic heroes (probably 'heroes more in ancient Greek sense than in modern sense; no morality implied) then their ability to exert their will to the world should match. If they want to bring down nations or become a Sorcerer-King, then by all means! Being epic should be about more than fighting bigger monsters with bigger numbers in their statblock (though that's fun too!)</p><p></p><p>And I'm tired of fighting over semantics and definitions, but some people have accused me of denying their playstyle. But I rather feel it is this sort of binary all or nothing attitude where there is only perfect story now or some railroady AP is denying the existence of certain playstyles. It is not how thigs are in the reality, and insisting on it doesn't make discussing what people actually do or like any easier. I don't like adventure paths, but the certain common Story Now mechanics and practices rub me the wrong way too. What I like could be characterised laying somewhere in the middle, at least from certain point of view. And it is a real thing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Crimson Longinus, post: 8634272, member: 7025508"] The issue we have is this. I ask what's the difference between A and B. You respond A has X, B doesn't. But to me it seems that B does have X (or at least can have,) so either I have misunderstood what you mean by X or you have misunderstood what B entails. And I'm trying to figure out which it is. Put let's look at the example. First. Knight-errantry type stuff in medieval Europe (perhaps inspired by actual Prince Valiant comics and other fiction of similar genre) seems to be the premise. I would assume that this at least implicitly informs the things the players declare their characters will do. A thing you insisted is a hallmark of a non-story-now game. So I'm puzzled. Second. Apart the use of the actual historical setting instead of a fantasy one, absolutely nothing in this would be out of place as a description of someone's D&D game. (Or Exalted game, or indeed most games.) It seems like a blast. Exactly the sort of thing I mean when I talked about having characters with motivation to do stuff and GM who lets them. Now if we zoomed in more we might see actual differences. Like how and why were the personality and the motives of the Byzantine Emperor decided? How was it decided that there even are some Robin Hoody bandits, or what's going on at Cyprus? But overall it seems just like a normal character driven play in an established setting that can and does take place in most games. I see more marked differences in this example, but I'm afraid properly contextualising them would require greater familiarity with the Burning Wheel system. (Which I used to know, but have forgotten most, and I'm not going to refamiliarise myself for the sake of this conversation.) The differences I note seem mostly be related to how certain decision that would in other styles would be made by the GM (and even some by the player) are offloaded to the system, and that the player seems to be able to use the system to 'compel' certain things to be decided and defined. I'm not claiming my style is fully character driven. It is not, as that is not my preference, but it is an amalgam of that and preplanned elements. The characters are free to roam the world, there is stuff that is happening in the world independent of them. Some situations they encounter may be be such that they're likely to elicit rather expected response, (so more plothooky, you might say) some are just stuff that's going on and there is no expected response. ("expected" here only in a sense that I anticipate what is likely, not in any prescriptive sense.) And of course the players are perfectly free to come up with their own goals. In the last game when they were looking for spell components they needed at a bazaar, the rogue decided to look for people who seemed wealthy. Then they gathered some info on these rich folks from the locals, including where they live. It seems quite possible that in next session some burglary will ensue. And this is small scale stuff, but they're low level. And I fully intend to embrace the concept of 'from zero to hero' and should they survive to become powerful mythic heroes (probably 'heroes more in ancient Greek sense than in modern sense; no morality implied) then their ability to exert their will to the world should match. If they want to bring down nations or become a Sorcerer-King, then by all means! Being epic should be about more than fighting bigger monsters with bigger numbers in their statblock (though that's fun too!) And I'm tired of fighting over semantics and definitions, but some people have accused me of denying their playstyle. But I rather feel it is this sort of binary all or nothing attitude where there is only perfect story now or some railroady AP is denying the existence of certain playstyles. It is not how thigs are in the reality, and insisting on it doesn't make discussing what people actually do or like any easier. I don't like adventure paths, but the certain common Story Now mechanics and practices rub me the wrong way too. What I like could be characterised laying somewhere in the middle, at least from certain point of view. And it is a real thing. [/QUOTE]
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