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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8634631" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Nobody is disputing that, at some basic mechanical level, 4e is 'based on' 3e, it surely is designed to take the same basic elements as a starting point. The combat systems are very similar in many respects, powers are certainly not all that different from various mechanics that showed up in places in 3.x (3.5 mostly as you point out, ToB or more like Bo9S definitely being good choices, though you could see AEDU as being similar to some of the non-vancian caster implementations too). So, yes, clearly 3.x was a starting point, and I don't think the designers of 3e did anything incredibly stupid in terms of the basic chasis of 3e. The problems were really in terms of not focusing on doing some things well, and I have to say there was something very stanky about their playtesting, because a lot of stuff that could easily have been improved was just borked. </p><p></p><p>So, 3e fighters are just a terrible implementation. The whole 'full round attack' thing and how multi-attacks work, the way any move that isn't "I swing my sword" is basically either worthless or has to be built heavily with feats/skills (and is then too niche to be viable). Fighters lose their MAIN claim to fame from AD&D, which was a really significant hardiness against magic/poison/etc. And then there's just no options, you get swings, and more swings, and... There REALLY IS no particular reason to ever play a non-caster past about level 3. At least half of all the classes in the game will never haul their own weight past level 3-5 or so. People can say it doesn't matter, but that's BS. </p><p></p><p>And what if I DO make a strong Cleric/Druid build? You dismiss that like I'm some incredible deviant if I do something like that, but OF COURSE THAT IS WHAT I DID! I mean, it costs nothing to be 3x more effective. I can still do all the RP and whatever that anyone else can do. Sure, you can claim "but if you want to play a fighter, why would you do that?" but all the players I know really want to play a fighter THAT KICKS ASS, yet, measurably it won't! If you're lucky the cleric will just focus on tons of buffs to put on the fighter, so now you're a buff rack, and even that won't make your level 9 fighter worth having in the party.</p><p></p><p>That's all just the gross mechanical stuff, but it is only scratching the surface of the profound issues with 3e. I mean, sure, its a functional RPG, so is RIFTS, that doesn't mean it isn't hugely and deeply flawed, because it is. Frankly, IMHO, the reason WotC developed 4e was simply the fact that the design team they had basically said "We can't do anything more with this giant festering pile of orc dung. We need to start over!" lol.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8634631, member: 82106"] Nobody is disputing that, at some basic mechanical level, 4e is 'based on' 3e, it surely is designed to take the same basic elements as a starting point. The combat systems are very similar in many respects, powers are certainly not all that different from various mechanics that showed up in places in 3.x (3.5 mostly as you point out, ToB or more like Bo9S definitely being good choices, though you could see AEDU as being similar to some of the non-vancian caster implementations too). So, yes, clearly 3.x was a starting point, and I don't think the designers of 3e did anything incredibly stupid in terms of the basic chasis of 3e. The problems were really in terms of not focusing on doing some things well, and I have to say there was something very stanky about their playtesting, because a lot of stuff that could easily have been improved was just borked. So, 3e fighters are just a terrible implementation. The whole 'full round attack' thing and how multi-attacks work, the way any move that isn't "I swing my sword" is basically either worthless or has to be built heavily with feats/skills (and is then too niche to be viable). Fighters lose their MAIN claim to fame from AD&D, which was a really significant hardiness against magic/poison/etc. And then there's just no options, you get swings, and more swings, and... There REALLY IS no particular reason to ever play a non-caster past about level 3. At least half of all the classes in the game will never haul their own weight past level 3-5 or so. People can say it doesn't matter, but that's BS. And what if I DO make a strong Cleric/Druid build? You dismiss that like I'm some incredible deviant if I do something like that, but OF COURSE THAT IS WHAT I DID! I mean, it costs nothing to be 3x more effective. I can still do all the RP and whatever that anyone else can do. Sure, you can claim "but if you want to play a fighter, why would you do that?" but all the players I know really want to play a fighter THAT KICKS ASS, yet, measurably it won't! If you're lucky the cleric will just focus on tons of buffs to put on the fighter, so now you're a buff rack, and even that won't make your level 9 fighter worth having in the party. That's all just the gross mechanical stuff, but it is only scratching the surface of the profound issues with 3e. I mean, sure, its a functional RPG, so is RIFTS, that doesn't mean it isn't hugely and deeply flawed, because it is. Frankly, IMHO, the reason WotC developed 4e was simply the fact that the design team they had basically said "We can't do anything more with this giant festering pile of orc dung. We need to start over!" lol. [/QUOTE]
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