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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8636004" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Sure, but outside combat you'd normally be in an SC. I mean, it is also technically possible to make something that is a 'combat-like' scenario. I call it 'action sequence' in HoML where the PCs use the combat style turn structure but instead of actual melee opponents they face terrain, hazards, etc. 4e could, for instance run the famous 'Indiana Jones' sequence at the start of the first movie that way, as basically one giant 'combat' (though I think it works fine as an SC).</p><p></p><p>No, each skill challenge has a level, which plugs into the rest of 4e just like the levels of combats do, so a really extreme SC will be party level +4. All checks within the challenge take on the DC of that level, with the rules specifying how many will be easy, medium, and hard checks (RC pp159). It is every bit as nailed-down as combat! Yes, the GM decides which skills are applicable as primary and/or secondary, and has various other options, but the one inviolable rule is that the DCs and number of checks require for success/failure are fixed according to the level and complexity of the SC (which really should be conveyed to the players when the SC starts, though difficulty can be left to the players to discover by what the DCs are). </p><p></p><p>Perhaps, and yet I've never actually seen a group check used, myself. I guess there may be GMs who rely heavily on them, but in my 5e experience its pretty much all just one-off checks. 5e doesn't even really clearly spell out something like ongoing success, though it certainly isn't ruled out.</p><p></p><p>I assume you mean this in reference to "the GM will probably feel obliged..." but my point is EVEN IF THEY DO there are many reasons why a GM is likely to give checks quite different valence in different GAME situations. Even assuming the most rigidly principled play individual skill checks don't have much relationship to the achievement of player intent. That is exactly what they have in the SC system! And to be clear, as I see it 4e strongly intends SCs to cover all but fairly trivial situations where little or nothing is at stake. I mean, this is an area where participants were rather free to take 4e's structure in various directions. Many GMs hated giving guarantees and simply banished SCs from the game, taking a lot of power back and making a much more 5e-like curated content game where skills, as [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] notes, mostly just serve as 'prompts', almost in the ancient tradition of Old when a lot of GMs sat behind their GM screen and secretly tossed dice while saying to themselves "Yeah, if I get a 1-3 I'll rule that he fell into a pit." One of the earliest passes through HoML was looking at all the 4e mechanics and ditching everything that said "roll some dice..." unless it could be cast strictly in terms of an SC or turned into a 'Power' so it would just work in combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 8636004, member: 82106"] Sure, but outside combat you'd normally be in an SC. I mean, it is also technically possible to make something that is a 'combat-like' scenario. I call it 'action sequence' in HoML where the PCs use the combat style turn structure but instead of actual melee opponents they face terrain, hazards, etc. 4e could, for instance run the famous 'Indiana Jones' sequence at the start of the first movie that way, as basically one giant 'combat' (though I think it works fine as an SC). No, each skill challenge has a level, which plugs into the rest of 4e just like the levels of combats do, so a really extreme SC will be party level +4. All checks within the challenge take on the DC of that level, with the rules specifying how many will be easy, medium, and hard checks (RC pp159). It is every bit as nailed-down as combat! Yes, the GM decides which skills are applicable as primary and/or secondary, and has various other options, but the one inviolable rule is that the DCs and number of checks require for success/failure are fixed according to the level and complexity of the SC (which really should be conveyed to the players when the SC starts, though difficulty can be left to the players to discover by what the DCs are). Perhaps, and yet I've never actually seen a group check used, myself. I guess there may be GMs who rely heavily on them, but in my 5e experience its pretty much all just one-off checks. 5e doesn't even really clearly spell out something like ongoing success, though it certainly isn't ruled out. I assume you mean this in reference to "the GM will probably feel obliged..." but my point is EVEN IF THEY DO there are many reasons why a GM is likely to give checks quite different valence in different GAME situations. Even assuming the most rigidly principled play individual skill checks don't have much relationship to the achievement of player intent. That is exactly what they have in the SC system! And to be clear, as I see it 4e strongly intends SCs to cover all but fairly trivial situations where little or nothing is at stake. I mean, this is an area where participants were rather free to take 4e's structure in various directions. Many GMs hated giving guarantees and simply banished SCs from the game, taking a lot of power back and making a much more 5e-like curated content game where skills, as [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] notes, mostly just serve as 'prompts', almost in the ancient tradition of Old when a lot of GMs sat behind their GM screen and secretly tossed dice while saying to themselves "Yeah, if I get a 1-3 I'll rule that he fell into a pit." One of the earliest passes through HoML was looking at all the 4e mechanics and ditching everything that said "roll some dice..." unless it could be cast strictly in terms of an SC or turned into a 'Power' so it would just work in combat. [/QUOTE]
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