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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8636809" data-attributes="member: 71699">Am I right in supposing you allude to DM-curated RPGs like 5e here? I feel that could overlook a couple of things at play<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The deontic consequences of what have been called exogenous rules (aka tacit principles)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The constitutive worth of all those "PC build and action resolution widgets and interactions"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The regulatory worth of rules guiding to proceed in a certain way</li> </ol>Those are all interesting in themselves, but there is a further concern that is more fundamental<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The matter of agreement to any rule</li> </ul>It's irrelevant what rules we have, unless we agree to follow them. Agreement is never located in a rule, it must pre-exist a rule for that rule to take effect. An example I've used before are these rules, governing our interlocution<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Agree with whatever [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] says</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Agree with rule 1</li> </ol>Even though rule 1 and 2 specifically say that they are about agreement - agree with [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] - agreement to them is not located in them. You'll decide on other grounds to go along with them (or more probably, not.)In a game like AW a GM can still choose to not agree to any rule, running the game how they like. If the players enjoy it, perhaps they'll go along. The group are still relying on a mixture of the deontic consequences of tacit principles, and the worth they see in what is constituted by and guided toward by the AW rules.In a game like 5e a DM is expressly empowered to apply, reinterpret, modify, or disapply any rule. If the players don't enjoy it, perhaps they'll move on. The group are still relying on a mixture of the deontic consequences of tacit principles, and the worth they see in what is constituted by and guided toward by the 5e rules.System matters because folk have in mind their tacit principles, and are capable of discerning differential worth in what is constituted and guided toward. In grasping and upholding a system, they do so in order to - and typically in that way that does - secure the play they aim to enjoy. In my experience, and in play I read about or view, cases of 5e Calvinball have been equal in number to cases of AW Calvinball, which is to say none of either.</blockquote>

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