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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8637997" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>In the spirit of [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER]'s post, here are some recreations of process charts from Edwards's setting dissection essay, plus some of my own.</p><p></p><p>He gives sorcerer as an example of a character-driven story now (I'm departing a bit from his way of numbering the steps, for clarity):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">1. Establish introductory colour (environment, look and feel - I've never played Sorcerer, but as I understand it the game needs the group to make some decisions about the context, what sorcery and demons are in their setting, etc);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">2. Make characters, which includes a kicker - ie a player-authored situation that is a moment of disruption or crisis for their PC that propels the PC into action;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">3. Make the demons - this is setting up both context and content for the crises that will come during play.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">4. Prepare, which includes both "diagramming" ie organising the preceding stuff in a systematic way (on a chart a tiny bit like a traditional alignment chart) that reveals, visually (ie via its place on the chart) both to the player and the GM its thematic "heft"; and then the GM doing their prep work (I'm not across the details of Sorcerer prep, but I know it's a thing from how Edwards talks about it - and I do know the prep has to have regard to the diagrams);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">5. Begin play - which includes the GM drawing on their prep to frame scenes that (because they've been conceived of with the diagram in mind) will propel the players towards conflict (at a modest level of abstraction, this is similar to a Burning Wheel GM framing scenes that put pressure on the PCs' player-authored Beliefs);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">6. Resolve conflicts;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">7. As a result, witness and experience character transformations, which constitute the emergent story. The character changes, as I understand it, will among other things produce changes in the diagrams, which in turn therefore feed into future prep. This is one example of [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER]'s idea of scenes/situations having "fallout" which feeds into subsequent scenes.</p><p></p><p>Here's my attempt to do the same for Burning Wheel:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">1. Establish the overall situation and context, building on the GM's pitch of a "big picture";</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">2. Make characters - in BW this is a lifepath process, and iterates with step 1 because lifepaths implicate setting and context, and vice versa;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">3. Establish relationships, affiliations, reputations, etc - this is part of the PC build process, but is worth calling out because (i) at a certain level of abstraction it has a bit of resemblance to the "demons" stage of Sorcerer (ie it is part of the process of creating the NPCs and relationships that will underpin future conflicts and crises) and (ii) it is a further way in which the PC build phase of the game iterates back into step 1, of establishing situation, context and "big picture";</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">4. Establish Beliefs for the PCs - this is also part of the PC build process, but is worth calling out because at a certain level of abstraction it resembles diagramming in Sorcerer: it is <em>the</em> canonical way in which players signal their thematic concerns to the GM, and interweave the PCs, their relationships, their affiliations, etc (there is no <em>mandate</em> to make Beliefs be about a character's relationships or affiliations, or about other PCs, but it is discussed and strongly encouraged as a good way to support visceral pay with compelling situations);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">5. Begin play, which will include the GM framing an initial scene: the GM's job here is to frame so as to put pressure on Beliefs and thus propel the players into action declarations for their PCs; as I've discussed upthread, the players also have tools (eg Wises, Circles) to try and establish scene elements or whole scenes that will speak to their concerns, if they want to add to, or depart from, what the GM is offering;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">6. Resolve conflicts (as per the principle: say 'yes' or roll the dice - so if the players' declared actions don't immediately lean into conflict the GM just keeps saying yes and building up the framing until a conflict occurs - this is why relationships, affiliations etc matter because these give the GM the material, NPCs etc to use in their framing);</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">7. As a result, witness and experiences changes in characters - either internal changes (Beliefs change) or external changes (relationships change, new ones are created, allies become enemies or vice versa, etc); external changes are apt to produce internal changes too.</p><p></p><p>Here's how Edwards sets out generic setting-based "story now" (again, I'm playing a bit with his numbering to hopefully make it clearer and to roughly map to the preceding):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">1. Introduce the setting, including a particular situation-rich location where the action will start;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">2. Make the PCs <em>in that spot</em>;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">3. As part of PC build, establish the relationships, obligations etc the PCs participate in and are under, drawing on the setting material (Edward says "it is helpful for one, preferably more of them to be small walking soap operas");</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">4. Prep: identify the political, economic, religious, cultural etc conflicts that the PCs are implicated in, in virtue of where they are, who they are, and who they are related to; this may also involve identifying character goals that fits within that context;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">5. Begin play with a trigger event, something that destabilises the status quo - power, economics, status, religion, or whatever - in the starting location, which either the PCs, or the NPCs they're related to, can't ignore;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">6. Resolve the conflicts that emerge - Edwards's advice here is to "embrace the fullest and most extreme rules-driven consequences of every single resolved conflict, no matter what they are" and to "Show those consequences and treat them as the material of the moment in the very next scenes, every time";</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">7. As a result, the setting will be transformed and this constitutes the emergent story.</p><p></p><p>And here is how I would suggest doing this for 4e D&D:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">1. Introduce the setting - fallen Nerath, and perhaps work out if there's any particular aspect or element people want to focus on;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">2. Make the PCs, choosing build options that locate them (geographically, historically, thematically) within fallen Nerath - at this stage I think Halfling rangers who worship Melora or Avandra risk being energy sinks, but Dwarven Paladins of Moradin ready to crusade against the giants, or Eladrin envoys from the Feywild concerned about incursions of Goblins and Formorians are good stuff;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">3. This is probably the weakest part of 4e D&D in the present context - it doesn't have clear processes for making the PCs into "walking soap operas" - what I did was tell each player they had to establish one loyalty for their PC, and this led to relationships to places, peoples, gods etc which was enough to start with (4e themes and backgrounds, on their own, are good for step 2 but I don't think have quite enough heft to cover step 3 on their own)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">4. Prep: the players can work out if/how their PCs are connected, but more important is that the GM has to prepare (or at least find in a sourcebook) the stat blocks, maps etc that will allow presenting situations that speak to the concerns that have been identified at steps 2 and 3 (so if there are Raven Queen-oriented PCs, prep undead and Orcus cultists; for Kord-worshippers prep Bane-ites; etc); think about, and in practical terms work out, how these can be interwoven within the framework of fallen Nerath, and lean into D&D tropes where they will help carry this load;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">5. Begin play with an event that locates the PCs within the conflicts and tensions and connections the GM has identified and prepped for at step 4 and forces them to choose a side in some or other respect - it doesn't necessarily have to be as overtly destabilising of status quos as Edwards says, because fallen Nerath is already lacking status quos (the points of light are under constant threat from the darkness), but it has to provoke action for <em>these characters</em> given <em>their contexts</em>, and D&D leans heavily into taking sides in larger conflicts so build on that, don't shy away from it;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">6. Resolve conflicts - I think Edwards's generic advice here is pretty sound for 4e D&D;</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">7. As a result, the setting will be transformed: so as the PCs scale up the tiers not only are they changing in their standing, capabilities etc but the world they are engaging with is changing as a result of their actions (the "tiers of play" text in the PHB and DMG gives generic ideas about what sorts of changes might be expected - these don't need to be metaplotted, as following the preceding steps will make that sort of thing happen emergently).</p><p></p><p>I think using 4e D&D for a different setting (eg Dark Sun) needs a different set of steps, because 1 and 2 will probably be weaker in terms of a situation-rich location and context for the PCs, and hence step 4 will be harder. In my Dark Sun game, I used kickers as a supplementing aspect of step 3. That helped, but the setting still has a fair bit of "status quo" that I found it can be work to push against.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8637997, member: 42582"] In the spirit of [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER]'s post, here are some recreations of process charts from Edwards's setting dissection essay, plus some of my own. He gives sorcerer as an example of a character-driven story now (I'm departing a bit from his way of numbering the steps, for clarity): [indent]1. Establish introductory colour (environment, look and feel - I've never played Sorcerer, but as I understand it the game needs the group to make some decisions about the context, what sorcery and demons are in their setting, etc); 2. Make characters, which includes a kicker - ie a player-authored situation that is a moment of disruption or crisis for their PC that propels the PC into action; 3. Make the demons - this is setting up both context and content for the crises that will come during play. 4. Prepare, which includes both "diagramming" ie organising the preceding stuff in a systematic way (on a chart a tiny bit like a traditional alignment chart) that reveals, visually (ie via its place on the chart) both to the player and the GM its thematic "heft"; and then the GM doing their prep work (I'm not across the details of Sorcerer prep, but I know it's a thing from how Edwards talks about it - and I do know the prep has to have regard to the diagrams); 5. Begin play - which includes the GM drawing on their prep to frame scenes that (because they've been conceived of with the diagram in mind) will propel the players towards conflict (at a modest level of abstraction, this is similar to a Burning Wheel GM framing scenes that put pressure on the PCs' player-authored Beliefs); 6. Resolve conflicts; 7. As a result, witness and experience character transformations, which constitute the emergent story. The character changes, as I understand it, will among other things produce changes in the diagrams, which in turn therefore feed into future prep. This is one example of [USER=16586]@Campbell[/USER]'s idea of scenes/situations having "fallout" which feeds into subsequent scenes.[/indent] Here's my attempt to do the same for Burning Wheel: [indent]1. Establish the overall situation and context, building on the GM's pitch of a "big picture"; 2. Make characters - in BW this is a lifepath process, and iterates with step 1 because lifepaths implicate setting and context, and vice versa; 3. Establish relationships, affiliations, reputations, etc - this is part of the PC build process, but is worth calling out because (i) at a certain level of abstraction it has a bit of resemblance to the "demons" stage of Sorcerer (ie it is part of the process of creating the NPCs and relationships that will underpin future conflicts and crises) and (ii) it is a further way in which the PC build phase of the game iterates back into step 1, of establishing situation, context and "big picture"; 4. Establish Beliefs for the PCs - this is also part of the PC build process, but is worth calling out because at a certain level of abstraction it resembles diagramming in Sorcerer: it is [i]the[/i] canonical way in which players signal their thematic concerns to the GM, and interweave the PCs, their relationships, their affiliations, etc (there is no [i]mandate[/i] to make Beliefs be about a character's relationships or affiliations, or about other PCs, but it is discussed and strongly encouraged as a good way to support visceral pay with compelling situations); 5. Begin play, which will include the GM framing an initial scene: the GM's job here is to frame so as to put pressure on Beliefs and thus propel the players into action declarations for their PCs; as I've discussed upthread, the players also have tools (eg Wises, Circles) to try and establish scene elements or whole scenes that will speak to their concerns, if they want to add to, or depart from, what the GM is offering; 6. Resolve conflicts (as per the principle: say 'yes' or roll the dice - so if the players' declared actions don't immediately lean into conflict the GM just keeps saying yes and building up the framing until a conflict occurs - this is why relationships, affiliations etc matter because these give the GM the material, NPCs etc to use in their framing); 7. As a result, witness and experiences changes in characters - either internal changes (Beliefs change) or external changes (relationships change, new ones are created, allies become enemies or vice versa, etc); external changes are apt to produce internal changes too.[/indent] Here's how Edwards sets out generic setting-based "story now" (again, I'm playing a bit with his numbering to hopefully make it clearer and to roughly map to the preceding): [indent]1. Introduce the setting, including a particular situation-rich location where the action will start; 2. Make the PCs [i]in that spot[/i]; 3. As part of PC build, establish the relationships, obligations etc the PCs participate in and are under, drawing on the setting material (Edward says "it is helpful for one, preferably more of them to be small walking soap operas"); 4. Prep: identify the political, economic, religious, cultural etc conflicts that the PCs are implicated in, in virtue of where they are, who they are, and who they are related to; this may also involve identifying character goals that fits within that context; 5. Begin play with a trigger event, something that destabilises the status quo - power, economics, status, religion, or whatever - in the starting location, which either the PCs, or the NPCs they're related to, can't ignore; 6. Resolve the conflicts that emerge - Edwards's advice here is to "embrace the fullest and most extreme rules-driven consequences of every single resolved conflict, no matter what they are" and to "Show those consequences and treat them as the material of the moment in the very next scenes, every time"; 7. As a result, the setting will be transformed and this constitutes the emergent story.[/indent] And here is how I would suggest doing this for 4e D&D: [indent]1. Introduce the setting - fallen Nerath, and perhaps work out if there's any particular aspect or element people want to focus on; 2. Make the PCs, choosing build options that locate them (geographically, historically, thematically) within fallen Nerath - at this stage I think Halfling rangers who worship Melora or Avandra risk being energy sinks, but Dwarven Paladins of Moradin ready to crusade against the giants, or Eladrin envoys from the Feywild concerned about incursions of Goblins and Formorians are good stuff; 3. This is probably the weakest part of 4e D&D in the present context - it doesn't have clear processes for making the PCs into "walking soap operas" - what I did was tell each player they had to establish one loyalty for their PC, and this led to relationships to places, peoples, gods etc which was enough to start with (4e themes and backgrounds, on their own, are good for step 2 but I don't think have quite enough heft to cover step 3 on their own) 4. Prep: the players can work out if/how their PCs are connected, but more important is that the GM has to prepare (or at least find in a sourcebook) the stat blocks, maps etc that will allow presenting situations that speak to the concerns that have been identified at steps 2 and 3 (so if there are Raven Queen-oriented PCs, prep undead and Orcus cultists; for Kord-worshippers prep Bane-ites; etc); think about, and in practical terms work out, how these can be interwoven within the framework of fallen Nerath, and lean into D&D tropes where they will help carry this load; 5. Begin play with an event that locates the PCs within the conflicts and tensions and connections the GM has identified and prepped for at step 4 and forces them to choose a side in some or other respect - it doesn't necessarily have to be as overtly destabilising of status quos as Edwards says, because fallen Nerath is already lacking status quos (the points of light are under constant threat from the darkness), but it has to provoke action for [i]these characters[/i] given [i]their contexts[/i], and D&D leans heavily into taking sides in larger conflicts so build on that, don't shy away from it; 6. Resolve conflicts - I think Edwards's generic advice here is pretty sound for 4e D&D; 7. As a result, the setting will be transformed: so as the PCs scale up the tiers not only are they changing in their standing, capabilities etc but the world they are engaging with is changing as a result of their actions (the "tiers of play" text in the PHB and DMG gives generic ideas about what sorts of changes might be expected - these don't need to be metaplotted, as following the preceding steps will make that sort of thing happen emergently).[/indent] I think using 4e D&D for a different setting (eg Dark Sun) needs a different set of steps, because 1 and 2 will probably be weaker in terms of a situation-rich location and context for the PCs, and hence step 4 will be harder. In my Dark Sun game, I used kickers as a supplementing aspect of step 3. That helped, but the setting still has a fair bit of "status quo" that I found it can be work to push against. [/QUOTE]
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