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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8641417" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Good post! I particularly like (and agree with) this:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is THE key component of a lot of rancor and confusion I've seen on ENWorld over the years. Is a GM eliding an aspect of play (eg travel from <em>here </em>to <em>there</em>, for instance) an instance of Force? You'll see people who are so deeply invested in serial exploration reflexively answer "OF COURSE!" The problem is that takes for granted a notion that <em>serial exploration and moment-by-moment timekeeping are fundamentally necessary to achieve an adequate expression of Process Simulation and Gamism (these are pretty much always the concerns with eliding time/space and therefore "cutting to the action"). </em>That notion is not a truism, but it has been assumed as such for a certain segment of the D&D userbase (and they're also typically preoccupied with the game's granular and realism-hewing, as these folks perceive it, expression of economics and ecologies and biological inputs and outputs and various other aspects of internal causality...curiously, they often just zoom right past by legacy D&D elements that kill all of those things stone dead!).</p><p></p><p>The other thing I wanted to touch upon above was the next sentence:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My position on this is that there is one more than your two fundamental opportunities (both of which I agree with) for Gamist play situated at the site of Travel. Let us take your first two (with a minor amendment - italicized) and add the other:</p><p></p><p>(1) The interplay of time and resources</p><p></p><p>(2) The risk of attrition/<em>management of liability</em></p><p></p><p>(3) <em>The skillful management of the decision-space for all legs of travel/attendant obstacles which entails charting a macro course from starting point to destination and charting a micro course for legs (through varying terrain features/topography/hazards/dangers and potential discoveries so multiple, clear options are on the table for the micro course charting with the consequences for each choice being transparent or inferable) which takes into account (i) the prowess/loadout/cohorts (et al) you can marshal and (ii) winnows the consequence space to a desirable portfolio of fallout (and away from an undesirable one).</em></p><p><em></em></p><p><em>[HR][/HR]</em></p><p></p><p>My italicized on your (2) and my full (3) is a huge part of GM-side skill, regardless of the system (it will manifest in particular ways though dependent upon system). If you're a GM running a Travel/Transport/Journey (etc) conflict, you need to deeply understand how these things manifest in the particular system you're running. If the system cares about Travel/Transport/Journey conflicts, these things will have gears and teeth. You need to know how to create a vital decision-space for players in which they simultaneously feel the interaction of multiple, both converging and discrete, pressure points and make this dynamic and compelling (thematically/dramatic need-wise, tactically, strategically...each of these being more or less depending upon the game) with transparent or readily inferable relationships between choices and risk and consequences.</p><p></p><p>EDIT - TO ANSWER THIS (cross-post):</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't agree that (a) this is happening in my post nor (b) that it is reliant upon a weakness or deficiency at the social contract level or poor insight by GM.</p><p></p><p>What I am expressing is that it is a fundamental shortcoming of system. Like, take for example, the game expressing that Travel is a site of Skilled Play expression, yet it is not entirely (or even entirely not) fit for purpose.</p><p></p><p>Social contract and great insight by the GM doesn't save Gamist play from the inherent shortcomings of system. I have endless reserves of confidence in my ability to consistently (and off the cuff...I never "design"/prep them) create vital and interesting (thematically/dramatic need, tactically, strategically) Journey/Transport/Travel (etc) conflicts in a dozen variations of system. But I will not run these types of conflicts in certain systems despite that endless reserves of confidence that I have because I know for a fact I will have rely upon a level of Fiat (or Force) that negatively impacts the experience for both parties (the players and myself) and damages the integrity of the through line of their skilled play efforts.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8641417, member: 6696971"] Good post! I particularly like (and agree with) this: This is THE key component of a lot of rancor and confusion I've seen on ENWorld over the years. Is a GM eliding an aspect of play (eg travel from [I]here [/I]to [I]there[/I], for instance) an instance of Force? You'll see people who are so deeply invested in serial exploration reflexively answer "OF COURSE!" The problem is that takes for granted a notion that [I]serial exploration and moment-by-moment timekeeping are fundamentally necessary to achieve an adequate expression of Process Simulation and Gamism (these are pretty much always the concerns with eliding time/space and therefore "cutting to the action"). [/I]That notion is not a truism, but it has been assumed as such for a certain segment of the D&D userbase (and they're also typically preoccupied with the game's granular and realism-hewing, as these folks perceive it, expression of economics and ecologies and biological inputs and outputs and various other aspects of internal causality...curiously, they often just zoom right past by legacy D&D elements that kill all of those things stone dead!). The other thing I wanted to touch upon above was the next sentence: My position on this is that there is one more than your two fundamental opportunities (both of which I agree with) for Gamist play situated at the site of Travel. Let us take your first two (with a minor amendment - italicized) and add the other: (1) The interplay of time and resources (2) The risk of attrition/[I]management of liability[/I] (3) [I]The skillful management of the decision-space for all legs of travel/attendant obstacles which entails charting a macro course from starting point to destination and charting a micro course for legs (through varying terrain features/topography/hazards/dangers and potential discoveries so multiple, clear options are on the table for the micro course charting with the consequences for each choice being transparent or inferable) which takes into account (i) the prowess/loadout/cohorts (et al) you can marshal and (ii) winnows the consequence space to a desirable portfolio of fallout (and away from an undesirable one). [HR][/HR][/I] My italicized on your (2) and my full (3) is a huge part of GM-side skill, regardless of the system (it will manifest in particular ways though dependent upon system). If you're a GM running a Travel/Transport/Journey (etc) conflict, you need to deeply understand how these things manifest in the particular system you're running. If the system cares about Travel/Transport/Journey conflicts, these things will have gears and teeth. You need to know how to create a vital decision-space for players in which they simultaneously feel the interaction of multiple, both converging and discrete, pressure points and make this dynamic and compelling (thematically/dramatic need-wise, tactically, strategically...each of these being more or less depending upon the game) with transparent or readily inferable relationships between choices and risk and consequences. EDIT - TO ANSWER THIS (cross-post): I don't agree that (a) this is happening in my post nor (b) that it is reliant upon a weakness or deficiency at the social contract level or poor insight by GM. What I am expressing is that it is a fundamental shortcoming of system. Like, take for example, the game expressing that Travel is a site of Skilled Play expression, yet it is not entirely (or even entirely not) fit for purpose. Social contract and great insight by the GM doesn't save Gamist play from the inherent shortcomings of system. I have endless reserves of confidence in my ability to consistently (and off the cuff...I never "design"/prep them) create vital and interesting (thematically/dramatic need, tactically, strategically) Journey/Transport/Travel (etc) conflicts in a dozen variations of system. But I will not run these types of conflicts in certain systems despite that endless reserves of confidence that I have because I know for a fact I will have rely upon a level of Fiat (or Force) that negatively impacts the experience for both parties (the players and myself) and damages the integrity of the through line of their skilled play efforts. [/QUOTE]
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