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*Dungeons & Dragons
Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8642346" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>[USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] I like your most recent series of posts, but I agree with [USER=5142]@Aldarc[/USER] on both counts. I don't sense his hostility. I think you're maybe sensing incredulity? There is that (I share it), but no hostility.</p><p></p><p>I'm incredulous (like Aldarc and [USER=70468]@kenada[/USER] ) because of the following:</p><p></p><p>* I have run a metric effton of B/X and RC hexcrawls from the mid 80s until 1999 playtest of 3e (and I've run probably 400 hours or so in the last 23 years since) so I'm very, very, very acquainted with what makes that play go and with what cuts against the grain of that play and what makes that play entirely dysfunctional (when inventory and gear stop mattering and attrition starts becoming irrelevant mostly because spellcasting becomes so prolific and potent...the starting point for 5e).</p><p></p><p>* I too have read 5e's core books cover to cover (multiple times and cited them). </p><p></p><p>* From 15 through late 17 I intermittently ran 5e (as a stand-in for a flaky GM) so I got a healthy peak at its play through most all levels (and honestly...probably more true to what is in the rule system than most 5e GMs out there); albeit only with a Rogue, Fighter, and Diviner.</p><p></p><p>* I have run an attempted 5e "hexcrawl" (that is what the GM that I subbed in for was running) and it was a mess because of all the reasons I listed above. I watched this GM that I subbed for run his "hexcrawl" in his intended way and it was exactly as I described in my #3. It was basically a Force-fest + Vignette-fest + Random Encounters (awful tables filled with combats...I created my own table for his game) randomly used or not and very little in the way of gears and teeth system and a through line of integrated, consequential decision-points. His GMing looked 100 % like the GMing of 2e that I witnessed and nearly all of the testimonials of the heavily GM-directed and/or AP play that I see on ENWorld. </p><p></p><p>Resultantly, I don't see how 5e's core game can even attempt to provide functional, challenging hexcrawl play (again, to start with, overpowered low level spellcasting cuts hard against the grain of functional wildneress hexcrawling) so I'm very curious about what you're pulling from in the various APs or Setting books or whatever to provide functional, integrated hexcrawl play. I'm curious how they deal with prolific and potent spellcasting from the word "go" + how they make gear/inventory/loadout a hefty decision-space + how they frame charted courses and moves made to create a dynamic and vital gamespace + what clock they use (if any) to keep pressure up on the PCs + incentive structures to encourage exploration and discincentivize "overexploring" or engaging in resource-ablating combat + how this all deals with 5e's very sensitive Adventuring Day dynamics to ensure class balance and Team PC : Team Monster balance. </p><p></p><p>If you say its out there in supplement/setting/AP-ville then I'm here for the course correction. I'd love to know (a) what the individual puzzle pieces are and (b) how they fit together to make a consistently coherent and Gamist-chunky play loop. Yes, incredulity is my default position (given the above), but I'm more than willing to be shown that I just don't have the full picture of things. But I need you to give me the full picture (like...I've written out so_so_so many excruciatingly detailed play posts that discuss what happened, how it happened, why it happened from...you're going to have to do something like that to help me understand).</p><p></p><p>EDIT FOR TS- RESPONSE</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that it is not easy.</p><p></p><p>Hence why I adore certain systems that pull it off (the ones I've mentioned) and the particular ways in which they do so.</p><p></p><p>The other thing is that GMs need to work on their game when it comes to this stuff. You need to understand what the stresses are to trekking and hiking and climbing and hunting and finding/making shelter. I'm lucky that I've been a part of most all of that culture at various points in my life. But you don't have to have engaged with it directly. You can absorb enough information, watch enough consequential documentaries and media to get your brain locked into the OODA Loop of someone who is dealing with all the various hazards and stresses and needs of the untamed wild. Once you've gotten your brain around the profound variety of hardships that are faced (what they look...what it feels like to be there), you can provide a compelling, dynamic gamespace for players (assuming you've got a system that functionally supports that stuff...without it...you're left to just vignette and Force and cosplay your way there...and...well...that ain't it!).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8642346, member: 6696971"] [USER=71699]@clearstream[/USER] I like your most recent series of posts, but I agree with [USER=5142]@Aldarc[/USER] on both counts. I don't sense his hostility. I think you're maybe sensing incredulity? There is that (I share it), but no hostility. I'm incredulous (like Aldarc and [USER=70468]@kenada[/USER] ) because of the following: * I have run a metric effton of B/X and RC hexcrawls from the mid 80s until 1999 playtest of 3e (and I've run probably 400 hours or so in the last 23 years since) so I'm very, very, very acquainted with what makes that play go and with what cuts against the grain of that play and what makes that play entirely dysfunctional (when inventory and gear stop mattering and attrition starts becoming irrelevant mostly because spellcasting becomes so prolific and potent...the starting point for 5e). * I too have read 5e's core books cover to cover (multiple times and cited them). * From 15 through late 17 I intermittently ran 5e (as a stand-in for a flaky GM) so I got a healthy peak at its play through most all levels (and honestly...probably more true to what is in the rule system than most 5e GMs out there); albeit only with a Rogue, Fighter, and Diviner. * I have run an attempted 5e "hexcrawl" (that is what the GM that I subbed in for was running) and it was a mess because of all the reasons I listed above. I watched this GM that I subbed for run his "hexcrawl" in his intended way and it was exactly as I described in my #3. It was basically a Force-fest + Vignette-fest + Random Encounters (awful tables filled with combats...I created my own table for his game) randomly used or not and very little in the way of gears and teeth system and a through line of integrated, consequential decision-points. His GMing looked 100 % like the GMing of 2e that I witnessed and nearly all of the testimonials of the heavily GM-directed and/or AP play that I see on ENWorld. Resultantly, I don't see how 5e's core game can even attempt to provide functional, challenging hexcrawl play (again, to start with, overpowered low level spellcasting cuts hard against the grain of functional wildneress hexcrawling) so I'm very curious about what you're pulling from in the various APs or Setting books or whatever to provide functional, integrated hexcrawl play. I'm curious how they deal with prolific and potent spellcasting from the word "go" + how they make gear/inventory/loadout a hefty decision-space + how they frame charted courses and moves made to create a dynamic and vital gamespace + what clock they use (if any) to keep pressure up on the PCs + incentive structures to encourage exploration and discincentivize "overexploring" or engaging in resource-ablating combat + how this all deals with 5e's very sensitive Adventuring Day dynamics to ensure class balance and Team PC : Team Monster balance. If you say its out there in supplement/setting/AP-ville then I'm here for the course correction. I'd love to know (a) what the individual puzzle pieces are and (b) how they fit together to make a consistently coherent and Gamist-chunky play loop. Yes, incredulity is my default position (given the above), but I'm more than willing to be shown that I just don't have the full picture of things. But I need you to give me the full picture (like...I've written out so_so_so many excruciatingly detailed play posts that discuss what happened, how it happened, why it happened from...you're going to have to do something like that to help me understand). EDIT FOR TS- RESPONSE I agree that it is not easy. Hence why I adore certain systems that pull it off (the ones I've mentioned) and the particular ways in which they do so. The other thing is that GMs need to work on their game when it comes to this stuff. You need to understand what the stresses are to trekking and hiking and climbing and hunting and finding/making shelter. I'm lucky that I've been a part of most all of that culture at various points in my life. But you don't have to have engaged with it directly. You can absorb enough information, watch enough consequential documentaries and media to get your brain locked into the OODA Loop of someone who is dealing with all the various hazards and stresses and needs of the untamed wild. Once you've gotten your brain around the profound variety of hardships that are faced (what they look...what it feels like to be there), you can provide a compelling, dynamic gamespace for players (assuming you've got a system that functionally supports that stuff...without it...you're left to just vignette and Force and cosplay your way there...and...well...that ain't it!). [/QUOTE]
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Supposing D&D is gamist, what does that mean?
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