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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8646861" data-attributes="member: 71699">I'm reluctant to impute a lack of sophistication to players. For example, I would not make the assumption that players who choose fighter will always prefer rules that make their characters stronger, because (apposite the thread topic) that could prevent the game being appealing on the qualities that matter to them.Yes. I nowhere suppose that players aren't able to consider the system overall in choosing to follow a rule. And that is a fairly obvious case of my rubric, i.e. that agreement to a game rule is never located in that rule.Possibly that opacity comes down to our looking at these things through different lenses? Yesterday I found this from Vincent Baker (2015)With those thoughts in mind, I'm not sure one can accurately connect incomplete memories of play with supposed creative agendas. For example, I observe players in our group having rich sets of intentions. When it comes to attempting something specific that justifies a roll, they don't recite those intentions. Nevertheless, they seldom attempt actions without underlying intent.Maybe it can be understood like this, using the example of opening a safe<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">It may seem counter-intuitive, but in 5e, you don't roll to open a safe</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Per DMG 237, what you are really rolling for is consequences</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Thus, the only possible outcomes are<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">you open the safe</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">you become engaged with additional consequences</li> </ol></li> </ol>I can wonder - what if the safe is empty? The answer depends on our decisions about the kind of play we are interested in. Perhaps if we are immersionists, we'd like to imagine possibly empty safes.I can wonder - what consequences? As I have said, for me the answer is strictly those constrained by situation, description, system. For another DM, the answer could be entirely different. And that will matter. For 5e system and DM matters.Per RAW, there aren't typically dead-end ability checks in 5e. I'm not saying they couldn't come up sometimes in an interesting way, but that isn't the default. In understanding ability checks for 5e, you can comfortably start with examples like the one you quoted from the primer. Later, you might read PHB 174 and pick up more sophistication. Eventually, you'll get familiar with the whole Core and see what's possible.Maybe the different ways that each DM can answer those questions (the two "I can wonder"s) connects to your creative agendas?The poster promised an update and I'd like to wait to hear their further thoughts.</blockquote>

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