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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8648832" data-attributes="member: 6795602">Most players may play Megaman with the goal of beating the game.Some players play Megaman with the goal of beating the game in the least time possible.  (Speed runners).Those players aren't really playing the same 'Game' in the most proper sense but they are both playing Megaman.  They use the same set of procedures and player moves but their goals are vastly different and so that makes their play look much different despite having access to the same procedures and moves.  But one goal is simply a self imposed goal and not one that originated within the game itself.  I don't think having that self added player goal makes Megaman into a non-gamist game.With that concept in mind, when a player in D&D adds an additional goal to D&D (I only 'win' if I play my character as I envision him) then that goal might very well restrict the player from making certain better valid moves, but everything he's doing still falls into game procedures.  Wouldn't that be gamist as well?So then a group like mine that treats out of combat as almost completely roleplay (albeit our party has goals) but we don't necessarily pick the best moves to achieve those goals as the game we have chosen to play is one where our moves are restricted based on our vision of our character.How does one pull apart this onion?</blockquote>