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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8648905" data-attributes="member: 71699">Okay, I re-read #1966. I don't see there what you see there, but I can trust as to your intent. It doesn't seem super-fruitful to hash over it. Let's go on from where we are.I feel one can fairly show that the upshot of 5e RAW is that (for ability checks) you roll on account of consequences, not "really" to resolve the task (if there are no consequences, the task auto-resolves.)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Certain? Don't roll.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Impossible? Don't roll.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Uncertain (solely)? Don't roll, multiply time by 10.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Uncertain and meaningful consequences? Only now ought we roll.</li> </ul>What's clutch is the meaningful consequences; without them, don't roll. When must we know the meaningful consequences? Going in, because we use them to judge if we will roll.I feel the possibility of outright set-backs and failures (where that is meaningful) make this not fail-forward. The game state isn't necessarily propelled forward, it could possibly revert.Ability checks are fundamental to 5e, even combat starts with an ability check. An ideal view might be that the concepts that apply to ability checks, ought to apply everywhere (for avoidance of doubt, that is not the case.) The ludic resolution cycles in 5e are<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">events between short rests</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">events between long rests</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">events between dawns (magic item refreshes)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">in combat, events (moves, actions, minor actions, reactions, interactions) per turn</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">encounters per level (implied by encounter rules)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">short rests per level (implied by encounters per level)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">long rests per level (ditto)</li> </ul>The events I am talking about are game events: updates to game fiction and state through applying rules. An ability check is one such event. Outside of combat, there's no fixed quota of ability checks per cycle (arguably, not even inside.) There is a fixed range for quotas of class feature uses and HD, per rest cycle, if encounter rules are followed. There are also - oddly - fixed quotas between food and water consumption, hexes that can be travelled, and magic item refreshes.NOTE EDITAs for orders of operations (restricting ourselves to core)<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">combat has an order of operations</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ability checks follow various orders of operations (the main one is touched on above)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">downtime activities follow various orders of operations</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">character generation follows an order of operations</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">there are quite a few less commonly used sub-systems, that have unique orders of operation (e.g. chases)</li> </ul>I'll stop here, because I think what comes next depends on your answer to my earlier question. In your view, is each approach to RPG play simply "gamist" or not "gamist"? Are you envisioning a binary? (Is the play "gamist" yes / no.)</blockquote>

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