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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8652269" data-attributes="member: 82106">Sure, but if there's nothing at all in game that says 'reward', how reliable is it? How much can we say that the game itself is even a part of it? I mean, if 'gamism' is just "I enjoy this part of the game and get a thrill out of doing this thing that isn't easy to pull off" is there ANY play (I'm sure there is SOME SOMEWHERE) that doesn't hit that at least part of the time? I think I want a bit higher bar, like there is some real intention there. Someone said "we're putting this into the game to create a situation where you need to really exercise some skill to succeed." At that point why wouldn't you also provide SOME sort of token that signifies that success? I also think that games which don't really provide these kinds of built in reward systems show it. Traveller is a great example of a game, very classic, rather successful, but it never even held a candle in that dept to D&D. Why? What do you get in Traveller for success in game? I mean, there's plenty of things in that game which can be quite hard to do, very many options for skilled tactical play for instance. Yet, there's not really a reward system. Canonically your character's stats, and even skills, don't really ever advance. You MIGHT or MIGHT NOT achieve some sort of loot, its not like there's any formalization of how that might work (and most GMs are content to keep the PCs down to a limited amount of 'stuff'). Honestly, of all the dozens of Traveller campaigns I ran in the past 45 years, every one eventually fizzled out (or the PCs got TPKed). There just is no real 'progress' in that game. Yes, it has been popular and successful, but D&D is a $100 million+ per year empire, Traveller is a couple of small game developers and a guy selling CDs of reprints of old stuff online.</blockquote>

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