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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Trit One-Ear" data-source="post: 6531502" data-attributes="member: 6678017">This argument is all circumstantial. If your version of surprise is kicking down the door while the enemy is sitting around, playing cards etc, than yes, they know your position, but cannot act. In this circumstance, the rules support the narrative.If the assassin in hiding, then he'd still have advantage, assuming his Stealth check was enough to be hidden in the first place. That's how @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=13009" target="_blank">Paraxis</a>' reading of the rules and the assassin class feature can still work together. If you're hidden, just because combat has started doesn't mean your position is given away, hence you still have advantage. Again, the rules and narrative work together.FWIW, I usually allow one character to start a combat with an attack roll if this degree of surprise is allowed (enemy not aware of your position, etc.) Then we roll initiative, placing that person at the top of the order. But that's just at my table.Trit</blockquote>