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Message: <blockquote data-quote="krupintupple" data-source="post: 5347962" data-attributes="member: 58300">like you, i've played 2e and 3e, so hopefully my perspectives on the issue of surprise will help out.as you've mentioned, the 2e system was fine, for 2e, but times have changed. the way that i deal with surprise in 3e isn't really to unsimilar than how you've ran it. the way that your players reacted though, is partially understandable but ultimately odd, because they're ignoring other important factors in the game.basically, even if everyone is fully aware of someone, like in your scenario, i have people roll skill checks to determine who's paying attention to the ebb and flow of things. skills like spot, listen, or sense motive are perfect for this, because they let you know how "tuned in" to the subtleties of the action your PCs are. you may roll an opposed check, or just state a flat DC, typically 20 or higher, to indicate that they've noticed something and are not surprised.for example:let's assume that the PCs are out in public and are watching a traveling circus, but are unaware that one of the masked performers is actually a deadly assassin, hired by their enemies. this is especially dangerous, because, should the assassin be able to watch them for 3 rounds, he could suddenly opt for a full-attack option and hurl multiple poisoned blades at them, potentially killing or poisoning half of the party! instead, you could use the following rubric to determine who's actually surprised:First, ask each PC to roll a spot, sense motive, or a knowledge (local). The benefit here is that there's a chance that more than one of them are going to be able to make these checks, and thusly, survive the assassination attempt.Anyone who rolls a DC 25 spot, for example, is told the following:"You note the accuracy and grace that one of the performers, in particular displays with his blades. They glide through the air with the skill of someone who's spent hundreds, if not thousands of hours around knifes. They seem to sheen as if they've been freshly greased against rust, or have some other substance upon them. You'll be sure to keep an eye on this fellow, just in case..."Anyone who rolls a DC 25 listen, is told the following:"You hear the whirling swish of the daggers effortlessly meet their marks, in bales of hay nearby. They neither clatter, nor falter - the blades are silent death. You suspect anyone who could toss blades so accurately must have considerable talent. Perhaps it may be beneficial to be mindful of such a skilled individual..."Anyone who rolls a DC 25 knowledge (local), is told the following:"This must be the famed 'Troubadours of the Gilded Drake'. Their half-draconic ringmaster is quite the sight, with his booming voice, frightful wings, and grand bravado. However, you notice something odd - last you heard, they only had a lone blade-tosser, but now they've got two. Now that you think about it, you recall overhearing some of their talent, complaining over pints last night, over the new hotshot that showed up out of nowhere. Hmm, better keep watch over this new stranger..."given, it's not perfect, but i've found that there's few complaints, and really helps give characters a reason for actively wanting to get different stats. sometimes, you could even raise or lower the DC to 25 or 15, depending on the situation, or even add some of their adversaries' skills to work against them (ie: DC is 20 + his ranks in hide, to note him working the crowd).some further examples:knowledge (religion) "Hmm, that's odd, Cuthberites don't touch alcohol..."knowledge (nobility) "Wait, wasn't the Duke on vacation?"craft (alchemy) "Weird. This guy's gloves smell exactly like...poison (or) a specific spell component?"craft (swordsmithing) "He claims that blade's dull and pitted, but it's razor sharp."spellcraft "Now why would the good Senator be nervously gesticulating his hands in the mode of black necromancy?"the list goes on, but you've probably gotten the idea by now. let me know how it works out for you. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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