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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Oryan77" data-source="post: 5348244" data-attributes="member: 18701">Are you saying that even though the PCs see the assassin performing (although they might not realize he's a potential enemy and think he's just a performer), you still allow them to do skill checks to see if they notice him about to execute an attack? If they fail the check, they are surprised even though they are "aware" that the guy was performing for the audience? Sorry, I was a bit unclear about this from your post.It sounds like that is what you do, which is what I'd like to do in my game. But according to the surprise rule, the PCs wouldn't need to do a skill check for surprise since they are already aware of the performer. They would just roll initiative. I'm just wondering what most people do in this situation. I have a good group of players now that probably would let me bend the rules on this. So I'm sure I can houserule it if I wanted, but I want to make sure I'm not wrong about the correct rule first. Or that I'm overlooking something that may make it a bad houserule.Well I'm really just wondering about this in a generic way. Not necessarily a situation where someone is trying to be sneaky, he's just trying to act first while people may not expect it.Even in the Hans vs Greedo scenario, by the rules, a player would argue that Greedo is "aware" of Hans regardless of whether he sees the gun or not. Cause that's what the rules say, you just gotta be aware of the person, not the actual threat. I'd rather do what you guys are saying and call for some sleight of hand (or hide) vs spot checks. But a rules lawyer would not go for it.But if I were to allow checks for a situation like that (being sneaky), I see it as being no different than if a person was just trying to react first while people least expect it (not being sneaky).So to dumb it down more, forget about spellcasting, or using special feats/skills to get away with it. Let's just say 4 PCs are having dinner at a table with a friendly NPC. Everyone is eating and chatting away, and the NPC lifts up a Hand X-bow he had loaded under the table and fires at a PC who is stuffing his mouth with bread. The NPC isn't even trying to be sneaky with the attack, he just lifts and fires. Say the PC is even looking at the NPC while he was taking the bite out of his bread.By the rules, everyone rolls for initiative since everyone is aware of the NPC. But to me, being aware of the action is what is important, not the person. It doesn't make sense to me that a guy taking a bite out of bread can roll initiative, get the highest initiative, and act first (maybe throws a dagger at the NPC before he shoots the bolt) when he had no reason to suspect that the NPC was a traitor.I guess it doesn't even need to be a surprise round. It could be a sort of before-initiative readied action that allows the NPC to act first in the round and everyone rolls initiative and acts after the NPC. Can the Ready Action rule be used like that legally? (I.E. "I ready an action to shoot my hand x-bow at BBEG if he keeps talking, even though combat hasn't started yet.")</blockquote>

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