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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vegepygmy" data-source="post: 5348399" data-attributes="member: 40109">That's not what the rules say, actually. Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware. The DM determines who is aware of whom at the start of a battle. He may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks to see how aware the adventurers are of their opponents. PHB page 137. This language is all any DM needs to refute the claim that you just have to be aware of the person, not the threat they pose. First, it explicitly says that the DM determines who is aware of whom. So that's it, then. Are you the DM? Then you determine awareness, not anybody else at the table. Second, I would argue that it is implicit in the surprise rules that one must regard the "other side" as an enemy or threat; if you don't perceive them as a threat, how do you know what "side" they are on? Third, the rules specifically state that the DM may call for checks other than Listen and Spot; if all you have to do is be aware of the person's presence, what other checks could they be referring to? Lastly, the words "how aware" suggest that awareness isn't simply a matter of perceiving another's presence; you may know they are there and still not be aware enough of the danger they present to you. (1) Who cares? I'm a rules lawyer myself, but if the DM tells me to sit down and shut up, I do it. And if I don't, he should kick me out for being a disruptive jerk.(2) Ask the rules lawyer to show you where the rules say awareness of the other person's presence is enough. He won't be able to do it. The most he'll be able to do is argue that there are no examples in the rules of other kinds of surprise situations. Then ask him what checks besides Listen and Spot might be used to determine awareness of another person's presence. (Search is about the only one I can imagine would apply, and even that's a stretch.) The underlined part is what causes me to disagree with you. IMO, it's not enough to simply be the first to declare hostile intent. There are physical cues (body language, tells, etc.) that may give away one's intent; and there's always the mysterious "sixth sense" that warns a hero of danger just before it strikes. How do we know none of the PCs noticed the crossbow under the table? How did the NPC load it without anyone seeing or hearing it? And how do you know the PCs have no reason to suspect the NPC is a traitor? No, if you want to get the drop on somebody, you're going to have to try, IMO. Your effort may be represented by a Bluff check, a Hide check, a Sleight of Hand check, or something else altogether, but I wouldn't allow any character to surprise another character who knows he is right there without giving the "surprisee" a chance to avoid it. No, no, no, no, no! There is (or should be) no such thing as a readied action outside of the initiative order. That way lies madness.</blockquote>

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