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<blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 454761" data-attributes="member: 6239">As per the DMG, you can not perform combat manuvers out of combat.&nbsp; This seems simple, but it will come up later, and is the basis of my argument on the subject.In the situation you were in, you heard something.&nbsp; This tipped you off that you were not alone.&nbsp; Unless the trogs charge at that moment, though, you are not on initive.&nbsp; You are not in combat, you are just being cautious.&nbsp; Since you are not in combat, you can't use combat manuvers, like fighting defensively.&nbsp; Your tatics are still sound though.Ok, now you are walking down the corridor playing mine detector and the trogs are appearently hiding, or was that just a ghost sound?&nbsp; Remember, you hear strange sounds all the time.&nbsp; If you went into full combat mode every time you heard something you didn't recognize, you would be a nervous wreck.&nbsp; You are still going to be cautious, and check it out though.If a trog is hiding, they have a chance to get the drop on you.&nbsp; Yes, I know you are looking for them.&nbsp; As a DM, I would give bonus to spot checks.&nbsp; You are being cautious, but are not in combat, so you can't fight defensively.&nbsp; When the trog attacks or when you spot it is when you roll initive.&nbsp; How this starts depends on who is deciding to act.Case 1: you see trog.&nbsp; I assume the trog is watching you and notices you spot him.&nbsp; If every one sees every one, roll initive, no surprize.&nbsp; Trog ambush has failed.&nbsp; If the trog gets a higher initive, he can hit you before you are really ready.&nbsp; If not for uncanny dodge, you wouldn't have dex.&nbsp; As it is, you can't be already fighting defensively, since you weren't in combat untill now.&nbsp; Chances are you win initive, since you probably have high dex and improved init.Case 2: you or your friend spot trog.&nbsp; You bluff so that he doesn't think he is spotted, or your friend spots him and the trog doesn't see your friend.&nbsp; Now you have a &quot;some combatents are aware&quot; so there is a surprized round action for those who are aware.&nbsp; Chances are your friend sees the ambush and springs it by shooting at trog.&nbsp; If you didn't see trog, you and trog roll initive.Case 3: you and your friend miss the trog.&nbsp; The trog now has the jump on you.&nbsp; Since he knows where you are exactly, he can get a surprize round on you.&nbsp; You would lose dex, if not for uncanny dodge, but you definately can't be on the defensive.&nbsp; After that, roll initive and resolve normally.The reasoning behind not being able to perform combat manuver outside of combat is due to the combat mechanic.&nbsp; If you can defend yourself well against everything all the time, you have uncanny dodge, not the defensive fighting manuver.&nbsp; It would make most ambushes fail.&nbsp; If you are on guard, you have a better chance of not being surprised, but do not make it pointless to try to surprize you.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="LokiDR, post: 454761, member: 6239"] As per the DMG, you can not perform combat manuvers out of combat. This seems simple, but it will come up later, and is the basis of my argument on the subject. In the situation you were in, you heard something. This tipped you off that you were not alone. Unless the trogs charge at that moment, though, you are not on initive. You are not in combat, you are just being cautious. Since you are not in combat, you can't use combat manuvers, like fighting defensively. Your tatics are still sound though. Ok, now you are walking down the corridor playing mine detector and the trogs are appearently hiding, or was that just a ghost sound? Remember, you hear strange sounds all the time. If you went into full combat mode every time you heard something you didn't recognize, you would be a nervous wreck. You are still going to be cautious, and check it out though. If a trog is hiding, they have a chance to get the drop on you. Yes, I know you are looking for them. As a DM, I would give bonus to spot checks. You are being cautious, but are not in combat, so you can't fight defensively. When the trog attacks or when you spot it is when you roll initive. How this starts depends on who is deciding to act. Case 1: you see trog. I assume the trog is watching you and notices you spot him. If every one sees every one, roll initive, no surprize. Trog ambush has failed. If the trog gets a higher initive, he can hit you before you are really ready. If not for uncanny dodge, you wouldn't have dex. As it is, you can't be already fighting defensively, since you weren't in combat untill now. Chances are you win initive, since you probably have high dex and improved init. Case 2: you or your friend spot trog. You bluff so that he doesn't think he is spotted, or your friend spots him and the trog doesn't see your friend. Now you have a "some combatents are aware" so there is a surprized round action for those who are aware. Chances are your friend sees the ambush and springs it by shooting at trog. If you didn't see trog, you and trog roll initive. Case 3: you and your friend miss the trog. The trog now has the jump on you. Since he knows where you are exactly, he can get a surprize round on you. You would lose dex, if not for uncanny dodge, but you definately can't be on the defensive. After that, roll initive and resolve normally. The reasoning behind not being able to perform combat manuver outside of combat is due to the combat mechanic. If you can defend yourself well against everything all the time, you have uncanny dodge, not the defensive fighting manuver. It would make most ambushes fail. If you are on guard, you have a better chance of not being surprised, but do not make it pointless to try to surprize you. [/QUOTE]

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