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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7082524" data-attributes="member: 6799649">There is a difference between 'player' and 'character'. The 'player' knows that the DM told them to roll initiative, and it may make the 'player' wonder why. But the 'character' doesn't know that initiative has been rolled because the 'character' doesn't realise that he is an avatar in a 5E game of D&D. Whether or not the 'character' realises he is in combat, or that combat is imminent, depends on that 'character' being aware of clues in his environment, and that is determined in-game by the 'players' making die rolls and using abilities.Wait, you mean that the creature.....perceives....the clues that combat is imminent? Hears the blade being drawn or sees the shaft of moonlight on his closed eyelids?That sounds a lot like Perception to me! If only there was something in the game that simulated Perception, like a skill or something!Here, you freely admit that sleeping creatures can perceive sensory stimulous, AND admit that sleepers who sense such stimulous awaken. Just like we've been saying all along and just like you've been denying whenever you say that sleepers are not aware while saying that noises wake sleepers.The problem, the logical disconnect, is that you have the assassin automatically fail! No matter how stealthy, he will always give the game away by whatever means you make up on the fly: sound of blade being drawn or shaft of moonlight or whatever. It's as if the world somehow conspires to wake the sleeper.Actually, it's the lack of stimulous, or the sleeper failing to react to the stimulous quickly enough, that causes 'surprise'.Agreed. But it is the in-game events that may (or may not) be perceived by the creature, not 'initiative being rolled' that wakens the creature or 'combat time starts'. No.Although we may judge that a particular sight or sound is automatically sensed, or automatically not be sensed, by the creatures in question, there remains a huge swathe of things that may or may not be sensed depending on how good the creature's senses are (Perception modifier) and on unpredictable chance (the d20).Although we may judge that something a stealthy assassin does cannot be perceived by a sleeper or that will automatically wake a sleeper, there remains a huge swathe of things that the assassin may do that may or may not awaken the sleeper. More skillful and experienced assassins are less likely to give themselves away in this fashion than less skillful or experienced ones. This is reflected in Stealth skill modifiers and other special abilities.This being a game, where the outcome is not certain (if it was it would be 'Magical Story Time' instead of a Role-Playing Game), the exciting bits are resolved through the dice, modified by various abilities, in such a way that being better at something makes you more likely to succeed. This helps us create characters with different strengths and weaknesses.Those wanting to create assassins should be rewarded for being good at Stealth (by being more likely to succeed at Stealth than if they hadn't bothered being proficient in Stealth), but your way means that no matter what they do or how skilled they are then the sleeper automatically wakes.You do the same with Perception. You avoid having the sleeper make Perception checks (on the grounds that they are asleep and cannot 'choose' to hear!) and have them wake up anyway, no matter how poor their Perception. You don't need to tell the DM that you are walking around with your eyes open! You don't need to state in advance that you can hear noises.I've no problem with using passive Perception BTW; it keeps your investment in the Perception skill relevant. Because that's how senses work! In a group of real people there may be sounds that none of them hear (ant breathes in), sounds that all of them hear (explosion), and sounds that some of them hear but some don't (leopard concealed in the trees treads on some dry leaves). How do we work out which people hear the threat and which don't? Well, those with better Perception are more likely to hear the threat than those who are not so Perceptive.Some things are hidden in regard to some creatures while not being hidden to others, and one possible reason is that some creatures managed to Perceive a threat while others didn't because of a combination of chance and keen senses. This is what the check is for, and the game engine is built for this. If it did not expect us to roll for this stuff then it wouldn't bother with Stealth or Perception skills!  It's called Survival of the Fittest. The creatures that didn't hear the approaching predator and wake up in time were much less likely to survive to have such dozy offspring. I'm using 'fair' in the sense that creatures have a chance to be stealthy and that being more stealthy means being more likely to remain undetected. And that creatures that are more Perceptive have a better chance of perceiving something than those that are less perceptive. It's about the logic of the situation, not about character building.It's a survival mechanism. All the creatures who can't be woken like this have already been eaten! Your certainty in every single case is what is unrealistic. Especially in a game, where such uncertainty combined with skill is the heart of a game where situations are resolved through rolling dice! I would find it absurd if a skilled assassin stealthily drawing his blade was the direct cause of a flash of moonlight that automatically woke every creature within a 30 foot radius!</blockquote>

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