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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GM Dave" data-source="post: 5890549" data-attributes="member: 6687992">I would treat this as a training issue with skills.The old system of roll a d6 did not really reward the person that took the time to hide or sneak or move silently along.Removing the skill element from the Surprise would penalize a person that wanted to attempt to sneak along.I have plenty of opportunities for the players to sneak and surprise or be surprised by their opponents.  Larger groups have a more difficult time of it (you are only as strong as your weakest link) because everyone has to make the attempt (the more attempts, the more likely a poor result occurs).I also usually allow one roll to stand for a wide period of time (I don't require a skill check every round but allow a check to apply for an encounter unless the person takes an action that would require a new stealth roll like a major acrobatics is being combined with the stealth or an attack).The players that want to stealth let me know, give me rolls, and then if they are given lead time by the others (stealth is slow and the rest of the group is not always willing to wait around), they can often move into positions where ever they want, spy, and even report back on what they've found if they like.I also usually allow a moving group to get one perception roll with other people being asked if they will aid or not (I use a failed aid as a penalty of double a successful aid which reduces everyone grabbing a die and opting to aid for no reason but the free chance to add +2 in 3.5/PF system).  Occasionally, the players have ended up in ambushes as a result or retalitory attacks for things they have done.I think this shows that by having a section that more explains how to use Perception, Stealth, and looking at an environment more as a static maze of one door must lead to the second door; will bring back more of the surprise and ambush elements.</blockquote>

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