Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Survey Launch | Player's Handbook Playtest 5 | Unearthed Arcana | D&D
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9032111" data-attributes="member: 93670"><p>What problem are you trying to solve here? It's still bleach style stand in the sky just to nullify threat from ground based adversaries. It doesn't require enough movement to make the "mode" granting free hover a tactical concern. One 90 degree turn doesn't even impose difficulty in combat either because facing rules are "optional". Standing in the sky and moving one square from where you were standing is still standing in the sky. </p><p></p><p>All this really does is allow the same problem to remain while <em>technically</em> doing something that accomplishes the single goal of applying a "I don't have a dog in this.... [both sides]" do nothing limit that serves to make things difficult for the GM to balance thanks to enshrining the ability to say "well... actually the letter of the rule says I <em>only</em> need to..." Someone on reddit made <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/13oguuc/most_players_dont_want_balance_they_want_power/" target="_blank">a great post</a> about this recently</p><p>[spoiler="said post"]</p><h3>Most players don't want balance, they want power fantasy</h3><p><img src="https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/img/renderTimingPixel.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p><a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/search?q=flair_name%3A%22Hot%20Take%22&restrict_sr=1" target="_blank">Hot Take</a></p><p>There's a trend of players wanting the most powerful option and cherry picking their arguments to defend it without appreciating the extra work it creates for the DM. I'm not talking about balance issues within a party with one PC overshadowing everyone else. 5e is designed for a basic style of play and powercreep (official or homebrew) throws off the balance and makes it harder for the DM to create fair and fun encounters.</p><p>Some famous examples that are unbalanced for the game's intent but relentless defended by optimizers in the community.</p><p><strong>Armor and shield dips</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"The spell progression delay is a fair cost for multiclassing. Just give martials options to increase AC too."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Artificer or hexblade dips for medium armor and shield is a significant boost to caster defense well worth the 1 level spell delay. Clerics getting the Shield spell similarly grants very high ACs that martials can't rival. Monsters appropriate for tier 2 play aren't designed to deal with 24 AC. <strong>Most importantly, this removes the niche protection of martials being tanky frontliners and fantasy of casters being glass cannons to... armored cannons.</strong></li> </ul><p><strong>Peace dip</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Whoever can spare a 1 level dip, go into peace cleric to grab us double bless! It's a helpful 25% boost."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">5e's design of bounded accuracy and many buffs turning into advantage/disadvantage is good intent. A non-concentration 10 minute emboldening bond directly exploits bounded accuracy for so little cost. The fallacy is thinking 2d4 (5) = 25% bonus. <strong>The true value is a relative increase from baseline success and on great weapon master and sharpshooter is a whopping 62.5%</strong> (65% base accuracy, 40% with -5/+10, 65% again with emboldening bond + bless).</li> </ul><p><strong>Twilight sanctuary</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"A strong group buff helps everyone and hurts no one. Clerics are support and this is just one of the best subclass to do that!"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Every DM who has tried to run an official adventure for a party with twilight sanctuary will find that you can barely put a dent through your party's hp. As a non-cleric player playing with a twilight in the party, <strong>I get no joy from fights I know the DM has artificially inflated to compensate for twilight, or curbstomping encounters the DM just runs normally.</strong></li> </ul><p><strong>Silvery barbs</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"It feels great to negate crits and give save or suck spells a second chance. Besides, we already have Shield which is super strong! Are you gonna ban that too?"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">SB is a versatile spell better than one of Grave Cleric's niche features and lets you reaction-cast a save or suck a second time. <strong>The argument that "you lose your reaction for other things" is a focusing on the wrong thing; causing a creature to fail a control spell (which often eliminates their turn) is much stronger than keeping your reaction available.</strong> The fact that there is already a strong 1st level spell is not valid justification for adding another strong (borderline broken) spell into the game.</li> </ul><p><strong>Flying races</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"They're balanced if you add some ranged attacks, flying enemies, and environmental factors."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What the player really means is "I want to play a flying race to trivialize some of your encounters. Don't add ranged flyers or a low ceiling EVERY TIME or that defeats the purpose of <strong>me wanting to break</strong> <em><strong>some</strong></em> <strong>of your encounters</strong>."</li> </ul><p><strong>Extra feats</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"Choosing between an ASI or feat is a difficult decision. Martials need extra feats to compete with casters. Also give casters extra feats so nobody feels bad. Let's all just start with a level 1 feat so variant human and custom lineage aren't OP."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The whole point of feats and ASIs is they are two strong character building options that <strong>you have to choose between</strong>. Some of the most powerful feats assume you delay your ASI so it takes longer for you to get +5 DEX & CBE & SS. The already flawed encounter calculator breaks even more when character have what should normally should be 8 levels higher to acquire.</li> </ul><p><strong>Rolling for stats with bonus points or safeguards</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">"I'm here to play a hero, not a farmer. I want rolled stats where anyone can use anyone's array and if nobody rolls an 18, we all reroll. Rolling is fun/exciting/horribly unbalanced."</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starting with 20 after racial bonuses is effectively two free ASIs compared to 27 point buy. That's still akin 8 levels higher to acquire.</li> </ul><p></p><p><strong>Balancing concerns</strong></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><em>A good DM can balance for whatever the players bring to the table...</em> but it takes a lot more effort for the DM who is already putting so much work into the game.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The "just use higher CR creatures until you're happy with the difficulty" response has a few issues. Most optimization strategies don't give the party more hp, moving this closer to rocket tag territory. For twilight sanctuary, the one time they don't use it your now tailored fight that was medium is now deadly-TPK. Unbalanced features buff the players in janky ways that create other problems.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Players pick the strongest options: that's not a fault in itself, it's a game after all. But combined with overpowered official content and popular homebrew buffs can create a nightmare for DMs to run.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If the players want all these features and additional homebrew bonuses like feats or enhanced stat rolling to be more powerful, why not... just go the simple route and play at a higher level? (if you really want to kill an adult dragon with ease, just be level 15 instead of 10)</li> </ul><p></p><p></p><p>[/spoiler]</p><p>5e needs to stop assuming that players aren't going to behave like players & write rules that enable the GM rather than rules designed to shrield against the adversary known as the gm.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9032111, member: 93670"] What problem are you trying to solve here? It's still bleach style stand in the sky just to nullify threat from ground based adversaries. It doesn't require enough movement to make the "mode" granting free hover a tactical concern. One 90 degree turn doesn't even impose difficulty in combat either because facing rules are "optional". Standing in the sky and moving one square from where you were standing is still standing in the sky. All this really does is allow the same problem to remain while [I]technically[/I] doing something that accomplishes the single goal of applying a "I don't have a dog in this.... [both sides]" do nothing limit that serves to make things difficult for the GM to balance thanks to enshrining the ability to say "well... actually the letter of the rule says I [I]only[/I] need to..." Someone on reddit made [URL='https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/13oguuc/most_players_dont_want_balance_they_want_power/']a great post[/URL] about this recently [spoiler="said post"] [HEADING=2]Most players don't want balance, they want power fantasy[/HEADING] [IMG]https://www.redditstatic.com/desktop2x/img/renderTimingPixel.png[/IMG] [URL='https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/search?q=flair_name%3A%22Hot%20Take%22&restrict_sr=1']Hot Take[/URL] There's a trend of players wanting the most powerful option and cherry picking their arguments to defend it without appreciating the extra work it creates for the DM. I'm not talking about balance issues within a party with one PC overshadowing everyone else. 5e is designed for a basic style of play and powercreep (official or homebrew) throws off the balance and makes it harder for the DM to create fair and fun encounters. Some famous examples that are unbalanced for the game's intent but relentless defended by optimizers in the community. [B]Armor and shield dips[/B] [LIST] [*]"The spell progression delay is a fair cost for multiclassing. Just give martials options to increase AC too." [*]Artificer or hexblade dips for medium armor and shield is a significant boost to caster defense well worth the 1 level spell delay. Clerics getting the Shield spell similarly grants very high ACs that martials can't rival. Monsters appropriate for tier 2 play aren't designed to deal with 24 AC. [B]Most importantly, this removes the niche protection of martials being tanky frontliners and fantasy of casters being glass cannons to... armored cannons.[/B] [/LIST] [B]Peace dip[/B] [LIST] [*]"Whoever can spare a 1 level dip, go into peace cleric to grab us double bless! It's a helpful 25% boost." [*]5e's design of bounded accuracy and many buffs turning into advantage/disadvantage is good intent. A non-concentration 10 minute emboldening bond directly exploits bounded accuracy for so little cost. The fallacy is thinking 2d4 (5) = 25% bonus. [B]The true value is a relative increase from baseline success and on great weapon master and sharpshooter is a whopping 62.5%[/B] (65% base accuracy, 40% with -5/+10, 65% again with emboldening bond + bless). [/LIST] [B]Twilight sanctuary[/B] [LIST] [*]"A strong group buff helps everyone and hurts no one. Clerics are support and this is just one of the best subclass to do that!" [*]Every DM who has tried to run an official adventure for a party with twilight sanctuary will find that you can barely put a dent through your party's hp. As a non-cleric player playing with a twilight in the party, [B]I get no joy from fights I know the DM has artificially inflated to compensate for twilight, or curbstomping encounters the DM just runs normally.[/B] [/LIST] [B]Silvery barbs[/B] [LIST] [*]"It feels great to negate crits and give save or suck spells a second chance. Besides, we already have Shield which is super strong! Are you gonna ban that too?" [*]SB is a versatile spell better than one of Grave Cleric's niche features and lets you reaction-cast a save or suck a second time. [B]The argument that "you lose your reaction for other things" is a focusing on the wrong thing; causing a creature to fail a control spell (which often eliminates their turn) is much stronger than keeping your reaction available.[/B] The fact that there is already a strong 1st level spell is not valid justification for adding another strong (borderline broken) spell into the game. [/LIST] [B]Flying races[/B] [LIST] [*]"They're balanced if you add some ranged attacks, flying enemies, and environmental factors." [*]What the player really means is "I want to play a flying race to trivialize some of your encounters. Don't add ranged flyers or a low ceiling EVERY TIME or that defeats the purpose of [B]me wanting to break[/B] [I][B]some[/B][/I] [B]of your encounters[/B]." [/LIST] [B]Extra feats[/B] [LIST] [*]"Choosing between an ASI or feat is a difficult decision. Martials need extra feats to compete with casters. Also give casters extra feats so nobody feels bad. Let's all just start with a level 1 feat so variant human and custom lineage aren't OP." [*]The whole point of feats and ASIs is they are two strong character building options that [B]you have to choose between[/B]. Some of the most powerful feats assume you delay your ASI so it takes longer for you to get +5 DEX & CBE & SS. The already flawed encounter calculator breaks even more when character have what should normally should be 8 levels higher to acquire. [/LIST] [B]Rolling for stats with bonus points or safeguards[/B] [LIST] [*]"I'm here to play a hero, not a farmer. I want rolled stats where anyone can use anyone's array and if nobody rolls an 18, we all reroll. Rolling is fun/exciting/horribly unbalanced." [*]Starting with 20 after racial bonuses is effectively two free ASIs compared to 27 point buy. That's still akin 8 levels higher to acquire. [/LIST] [B]Balancing concerns[/B] [LIST] [*][I]A good DM can balance for whatever the players bring to the table...[/I] but it takes a lot more effort for the DM who is already putting so much work into the game. [*]The "just use higher CR creatures until you're happy with the difficulty" response has a few issues. Most optimization strategies don't give the party more hp, moving this closer to rocket tag territory. For twilight sanctuary, the one time they don't use it your now tailored fight that was medium is now deadly-TPK. Unbalanced features buff the players in janky ways that create other problems. [*]Players pick the strongest options: that's not a fault in itself, it's a game after all. But combined with overpowered official content and popular homebrew buffs can create a nightmare for DMs to run. [*]If the players want all these features and additional homebrew bonuses like feats or enhanced stat rolling to be more powerful, why not... just go the simple route and play at a higher level? (if you really want to kill an adult dragon with ease, just be level 15 instead of 10) [/LIST] [/spoiler] 5e needs to stop assuming that players aren't going to behave like players & write rules that enable the GM rather than rules designed to shrield against the adversary known as the gm. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Survey Launch | Player's Handbook Playtest 5 | Unearthed Arcana | D&D
Top