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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Primitive Screwhead" data-source="post: 2759708" data-attributes="member: 20805">Funny.. my first thought reading the title of the thread was "wait a second, true north is an artifact of scientific discovery and is based on the axis the world spins on... you can't find 'True North' without extensive maps/surveys etc..."But, your right. The text does state the 5 ranks can determine 'True North' automatically.As to underground, the SRD states "If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while underground." For DC's to determine North..a couple options: Based on the ease of the 5 rank deal, make it DC 10. Most characters with 5 ranks would auto-succeed at this point anyway. or..  of to Poster C land again.. been doing that alot recently... Ignore that, IMO, silly rule and go with the following:  Base DC 25   +5 bonus if you have lived in the area for more than 1 month   +5 bonus if there are two or more known landmarks, such as mountain ranges within sight   +5 bonus if there are astrological bodies visible   Autosucceed with a Lodestone <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Here is my train of thought..without references, direction is extremely easy to get confused. Underground passageways are worse as subtle changes to a long tunnel can easily be missed, or a left, right left, left path actually gets you to the right of your original tunnel... However, with training {read points into Survival} and a handful of references it becomes second nature. Also, underground you tend to think in terms of 'to get to Shelobs lair I need to follow the cavern with the chalky white rock'... not in terms of 'head east'. The only purpose for knowing cardinal direction underground, barring religous restrictions for prayer time or something similar, is to try to find an unknown opening to the surface world near a desired location. fx, Orcs are planning to attack a party camped near the fork in the river topside. A series of tunnels do lead that way but the Orcs had never explored them. Suvival checks would allow them to determine direction and distance, guestimating when they are beneath the parties camp. Hmm.. just noticed somethign interesting. The SRD environs do not include underground!Dungeons are listed basically as buildings below the surface of the dirt and none of the fun spelunking features are mentioned.</blockquote>

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