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<blockquote data-quote="Caliburn101" data-source="post: 7455036" data-attributes="member: 6802178"><p>That last line is I assume tongue in cheek? I suggest you do a death count in the next game you join - one where the rules use '0 HP = taking them down' for NPCs. Then, after a big combat, ask the GM how many of the party's opponents are dead, and compare it to the number he/she has decided are merely incapacitated instead.</p><p></p><p>I don't think I need to further predict the results of such an exercise, or indeed that you would doubt it yourself.</p><p></p><p>The vast majority of them would be dead.</p><p></p><p>Let me ask you two things;</p><p></p><p>1. When was the last time you were in, or ran a campaign in any rpg system whatsoever where death was not generally the main point of combat?</p><p>2. If you can think of one - how many such campaigns out of all those you have been involved in does this represent?</p><p></p><p>I didn't construct a strawman. Death is extremely common in rpgs, and the amount of rules covering combat is ample testament to that.</p><p></p><p>Campaigns without lethal combat are corner cases. Campaigns without the risk of character death are corner cases.</p><p></p><p>Are they invalid ways to play? No of course not. But they are very uncommon.</p><p></p><p>In a game where challenge is valued, risks are overcome (with all the catharsis that comes with that) and lethal combat rules take up a large part of the rulebook, it is entirely obvious that there should be a risk of death for PCs or an element of risk is taken from the game and it loses the capacity to keep players on the edge of their seats during the vast majority of physical combats (i.e. those in which death is a part of the scene).</p><p></p><p>That there is a risk of death for the PCs is a baseline assumption of the vast majority of rpgs. A game can run without this happening, but the moment is becomes clear to the players that they cannot die because the GM won't let it happen, it will lose the excitement of that part of the game...</p><p></p><p>… and it is nearly <em>always</em> a significant part of the game.</p><p></p><p>If you disagree - I challenge you to run a campaign where you make the combat challenges consistently easy and so imply with your rulings that PCs have 'script immunity' - do it with any randomly selected players and see what the feedback is.</p><p></p><p>If that seems like too much work, a straw poll of randomly selected rpgs to see how many of them have large combat chapters and equipment lists with large numbers of weapons and armour should make what I am stating more evident. Of those, count how many weapons etc. cannot kill - merely 'take out'?</p><p></p><p>I have run 12 hour marathon games without a whiff of combat - I am not always interested in combat in a game, and it isn't necessary in every game for everyone to enjoy it. But to make it so insignificant as to be no threat to the PCs is a very, very rare thing.</p><p></p><p>In fact I have never encountered it in 40 years of personal play, only <em>once</em> experienced it at a convention (kind of - it was the star trek rpg and we were Federation officers - so lethal force was the last resort, so we worked <em>hard</em> to avoid it...), and never heard or anyone running an ongoing campaign without lethal combat in it. There may be an element of unconscious selection bias evident in that observation, but I have played a <em>lot</em> of different rpgs.</p><p></p><p>That's not to say it doesn't exist - but it makes it highly likely it is not statistically relevant.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Caliburn101, post: 7455036, member: 6802178"] That last line is I assume tongue in cheek? I suggest you do a death count in the next game you join - one where the rules use '0 HP = taking them down' for NPCs. Then, after a big combat, ask the GM how many of the party's opponents are dead, and compare it to the number he/she has decided are merely incapacitated instead. I don't think I need to further predict the results of such an exercise, or indeed that you would doubt it yourself. The vast majority of them would be dead. Let me ask you two things; 1. When was the last time you were in, or ran a campaign in any rpg system whatsoever where death was not generally the main point of combat? 2. If you can think of one - how many such campaigns out of all those you have been involved in does this represent? I didn't construct a strawman. Death is extremely common in rpgs, and the amount of rules covering combat is ample testament to that. Campaigns without lethal combat are corner cases. Campaigns without the risk of character death are corner cases. Are they invalid ways to play? No of course not. But they are very uncommon. In a game where challenge is valued, risks are overcome (with all the catharsis that comes with that) and lethal combat rules take up a large part of the rulebook, it is entirely obvious that there should be a risk of death for PCs or an element of risk is taken from the game and it loses the capacity to keep players on the edge of their seats during the vast majority of physical combats (i.e. those in which death is a part of the scene). That there is a risk of death for the PCs is a baseline assumption of the vast majority of rpgs. A game can run without this happening, but the moment is becomes clear to the players that they cannot die because the GM won't let it happen, it will lose the excitement of that part of the game... … and it is nearly [I]always[/I] a significant part of the game. If you disagree - I challenge you to run a campaign where you make the combat challenges consistently easy and so imply with your rulings that PCs have 'script immunity' - do it with any randomly selected players and see what the feedback is. If that seems like too much work, a straw poll of randomly selected rpgs to see how many of them have large combat chapters and equipment lists with large numbers of weapons and armour should make what I am stating more evident. Of those, count how many weapons etc. cannot kill - merely 'take out'? I have run 12 hour marathon games without a whiff of combat - I am not always interested in combat in a game, and it isn't necessary in every game for everyone to enjoy it. But to make it so insignificant as to be no threat to the PCs is a very, very rare thing. In fact I have never encountered it in 40 years of personal play, only [I]once[/I] experienced it at a convention (kind of - it was the star trek rpg and we were Federation officers - so lethal force was the last resort, so we worked [I]hard[/I] to avoid it...), and never heard or anyone running an ongoing campaign without lethal combat in it. There may be an element of unconscious selection bias evident in that observation, but I have played a [I]lot[/I] of different rpgs. That's not to say it doesn't exist - but it makes it highly likely it is not statistically relevant. [/QUOTE]
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