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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ravenheart" data-source="post: 4714351" data-attributes="member: 72088">I'm not so sure. I think there are lots of interesting monsters in the MM and other supplements that could be made into swarms (or hordes or throngs, depending on type and size). What I'd like is a set of simple guidelines for swarm-creation that could be easily applied to any base creature. In particular those concerning size and XP value. I mean, if I add a "free basic attack"-aura, resistances and vulnerabilities, am I not fundamentally altering that creatures role and abilities, making it potentially more lethal, thus requiring it to have a greater XP value, and thus completely changing the encounter budget? The same goes for handling swarms of small, medium or large sized creatures - how does a large or huge-sized swarm affect the encounter balance? Or why not just have a large swarm of rats, for instance? True. But how do these abilites affect the creature creation process? Are they just added for free? Maybe we could work some backwards engineering on the swarms and compare them to other creatures of the same level with the same role?Here are the swarms in the MM for easier reference: Rot Scarab Swarm (p. 30) Needlefang Drake Swarm (p. 90) Rat Swarm (p. 219) Shadowraven Swarm (p. 243) Bloodweb Spider Swarm (p. 246) - NOTE: The aura of the bloodweb spiders have an additional slow effect (save ends). How does this factor into monster balance? Stirge Swarm (p. 248)BTW, the Kobold Horde (DR 364, p. 59) doesn't have an aura. What can we make of that? Thanks for the offer, but I'm not in particular need of a swarm right now, I'm just fascinated by the mechanics. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" />I was actually more interested in the second part of my question, namely what to do mechanically when I wish to increase (or decrease, for that matter) the size of a creature. What could I compare a size-change to when adjusting a creatures level or role? To me this seemed to fit well with the template function, so I'll try and make a template:This is far from perfect, but I think it could work given some finetuning. On the other hand, I'm not sure this would be the best solution in all situations. For instance, when decreasing the size of a creature to simulate "young" creatures (or something similar) - they would hardly be the elite of that species? Just to clarify, I don't condone killing children in any way. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" />Another thing I lack guidelines for are minion creation. Sure, it's easy to remove all hitpoints but one and set a fixed damage, but what about defenses? What exactly should that fixed damage be? Maybe we need a sort of "minion anti-template". Or maybe I'm just daydreaming. Actually, it would be nice to see some of these things adressed in DMG2. *hint, hint developers!*Finally I just want to say this: Yes, I acknowledge the fact that the 4th Edition design philosophy involves taking a step back from complicated monster creation rules, but still SOME guidelines must be utilized (as we know by the basic minion, elite and solo mechanics). They might not be rigid and all encompassing, but they're guidelines nonetheless. And I'd like to have them, thank you! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" /></blockquote>

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