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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 5982967" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I come at it from a few angles for my expectations of the archetype's mechanical interpretation. These angles are underwritten by my understanding of the fictional lore of the 4 character's mentioned in the original post but even more, by the expectations of two long-time PCs (and dear friends) who are ardent fans of the archetype. Let me recapture the first paragraph and then delve deeper into how these archetypes should map to DnD's Ability Score mechanics and how the mechanics should inform the DnD fiction: Zorro, D'artagnon, The Dread Pirate Roberts (Wesley), Inigo Montoya, etc. The infamous, lightly-armored, nimble, graceful, agile, skirmisher, who uses a Finesse weapon in one hand and nothing in the other (or a buckler). In its most bare essentials, the archetype must possess a certain panache and guile, be a master swordsman, and move with the uncanny grace and agility of an Olympic Floor Exercise Gold Medalist.  1) Ability Scores in order of relevance/prominence: - Dexterity primary; Finesse weapon, extreme hand-eye and foot-eye coordination, agility, grace, precision over brute force, mobility over armored protection.- Intelligence secondary; Uncanny guile, martial technician, well studied.- Charisma tertiary; Panache (a measure of flamboyance in both martial and life pursuits), self-determination, extreme sense of self.- Constitution and Wisdom; Extreme aerobic fitness, honed instincts, spatial awareness, keen insight into the human condition.- Strrength; <Long Paragraph> Under the auspices of a single, predominant, ability score as dictator, the physical, fast-twitch elements of the archetype are better expressed by Dexterity than Strength. However, this is where the murky underbelly of DnD process simulation is exposed as it goes pear-shaped. Classifcally (in real life), fast twitch musculature capability (burst strength and dynamic, explosive power) would be quantified as Strength. Classically (in real life), slow twitch musculature capability (coordination, body-control, balance, grace, agility, nimblness) would be quantified as Dexterity. In real life, most extremely Dextrous people would have both a high Dexterity and Strength and these two would synergize to create an elite athlete. Further, they likely would often also have an above average Constitution score (to simulate their aerobic endurance capabilities). Unfortunately, that does not map well to the world of DnD mechanics when you consider the limitations inherent in ability score spread (due to limited character creation assets) and the siloing away of/lack of synergy between the ability scores. We are limited in DnD due to these mechanical constraints and their abstractions/limitations with respect to the composition of biophysics and kinesis. Given the above, if we want our mechanics should inform the fiction that the PC is (i) a World-Class Warrior who expresses this through (ii) Finesse/Coordination/Agility over Brawn, and (iii) Learned Martial Tactics and Economy of Action over Agression. To do this, we must choose a results-oriented route of Dexterity primary and Intelligence secondary and just fudge the component of Strength toward the Martial Output of the warrior's equation (which actually makes sense given how Strength's only potential contribution to the equation is circumvented due to the Finesse mechanic) . Trying to find a way to simulate the process (by putting Strength and/or Constitution into the equation) of this archetype's components -  Slow-twich biophysics predominance [grace, coordination, agility, nimbleness, balance, body-control]+ Well-Studied [guile, martial tactician over brawn, economy of action over agression] + Fast-twich biophysics component [speed, explosive parries, thrusts, ripostes]  will expose the DnD Ability Score Model as a poor simulation of reality (and specifically the kinesis synergy between Strength and Dexterity) and will fail the expression of (i) due to the dilution of (ii) and (iii) to the point that the archetype cannot possibly be (i) when compared to his martial contemporaries.  What's more, the Fighter's build framework seem to presuppose Strength (as primary martial contributor) and Plate Mail (as arbiter of AC) as mechanical assets are already tied up in Heavy Armor Proficiency and a Strength Bonus inherent to the class. Unless the designers provide proper analogs for these two (and add a class component such as a ZombieRoboNinja mentioned above - Int to AC with Light Armor and no Shield), a rather large component of the Fighter's built-in mechanical assets (that weigh heavily upon the equation of his construct) will be lost. If that happens, the Swashbuckler/Duelist/Bravo (built from a Fighter's framework) will fail at (i).</blockquote>

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