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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mlund" data-source="post: 5992872" data-attributes="member: 50304">Finesse Weapons aren't lame 3E Weapon Finesse. You use the Dexterity Modifier to hit and damage.Even presuming that you have two 18s to work with as a human, the Rapier Duelist puts those into Dexterity and Constitution. The Ax Slayer puts them into Strength and Constitution and has to take Heavy Armor for AC. If he takes Strength and Dexterity along with Light Armor he's going to have a rubbish Constitution Modifier to the tune of the Finesse Duelist having +3 or +4 HP per level and vastly better Hit Dice healing.That said, there's still an imbalance. Give a fighter a Heavy Weapon and Chain Mail and what's the Duelist got to show for his troubles? Better Initiative, Stealth, and Speed, I suppose. He also spent 65 GP less on armor.It's still 1d6 + 4 vs. 1d12 + 4 when you get right down to it.There's just not sufficient compensation for using a Finesse Weapon as a Fighter: Duelist as opposed to using the same class options with a Heavy Weapon and Heavy Armor. Nothing stops you from being a Duelist with Chainmail and a Great Sword and having massively better damage in exchange for Initiative, Stealth, and 5 feet of movement per round.The "empty hand dueling" is a red herring, though. People used bucklers, cloaks, parrying daggers, and offensive daggers in non-sport fencing for good reason. Giving you something back for foregoing a defensive item in your off-hand sounds like a good Theme, though.Theme in general is probably applicable here. A theme that gave you a bonus for using a Finesse Weapon with Medium or Light Armor would be just the ticket.Also, some movement-based Combat Superior options probably shouldn't be usable in Heavy Armor - like Tumble. Yes, I know you can do a cartwheel in Full Plate. No, that isn't sufficient justification for being able to "leap and roll away from the strikes of your enemies" with the same functionality you'd have if unarmored.- Marty Lund</blockquote>

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