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<blockquote data-quote="Infiniti2000" data-source="post: 3103358" data-attributes="member: 31734">The analogy doesn't break down.&nbsp; Besides flavor, the purpose of Energy Sub is to bypass energy resistant creatures (in this example fire).&nbsp; Agreed?&nbsp; When you encounter a non-resistant creature (of any energy) it doesn't matter if you have ES or not (and thus the whole example becomes irrelevant).&nbsp; Because we have to assume relevancy, the analogy is only applicable when a creature is resistant to the ES energy.&nbsp; Thus, if you don't allow stripping the metamagic feat, then ES would be an unfortunate spell preparation, just like quicken should you need that quickened spell twice.In other words, it's a perfect analogy when you consider that stripping the metamagic gains you something over not-stripping.&nbsp; A similar analogy could not be applied for all metamagic feats, however.&nbsp; I fail to see, for example, how stripping Heighten Spell could ever gain.But, surely you don't agree with Dracorat that you would allow stripping of Energy Sub on the fly?&nbsp; Wouldn't you prepare all your spells then with ES and just choose which one as you need it?&nbsp;Exactly.&nbsp; I can see the design of a new spell's casting time like this: &quot;We'll just make it a Swift action and that way it can never be used twice in one round, which would be broken.&quot;&nbsp; Is there such a spell?&nbsp; I don't know but I doubt it.&nbsp; At least I doubt one would really be 'broken'.&nbsp; But, the fact is that this increases the versitility of prepared spellcasters and does nothing for spontaneous-type spellcasters while stepping on their toes.Consider a wizard going up against a cleric and his high SR planar ally.&nbsp; The wizard casts assay resistance, but it gets countered.&nbsp; Knowing he has little chance of affecting his opponent, he casts another assay resistance as a standard action (or in place?).&nbsp; Not really broken perhaps since he cannot do anything until next round, but it's certainly useful as it would negate additional counterspelling.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Infiniti2000, post: 3103358, member: 31734"] The analogy doesn't break down. Besides flavor, the purpose of Energy Sub is to bypass energy resistant creatures (in this example fire). Agreed? When you encounter a non-resistant creature (of any energy) it doesn't matter if you have ES or not (and thus the whole example becomes irrelevant). Because we have to assume relevancy, the analogy is only applicable when a creature is resistant to the ES energy. Thus, if you don't allow stripping the metamagic feat, then ES would be an unfortunate spell preparation, [I]just like quicken should you need that quickened spell twice[/I]. In other words, it's a perfect analogy when you consider that stripping the metamagic gains you something over not-stripping. A similar analogy could not be applied for all metamagic feats, however. I fail to see, for example, how stripping Heighten Spell could ever gain. But, surely you don't agree with Dracorat that you would allow stripping of Energy Sub on the fly? Wouldn't you prepare all your spells then with ES and just choose which one as you need it? Exactly. I can see the design of a new spell's casting time like this: "We'll just make it a Swift action and that way it can never be used twice in one round, which would be broken." Is there such a spell? I don't know but I doubt it. At least I doubt one would really be 'broken'. But, the fact is that this increases the versitility of prepared spellcasters and does nothing for spontaneous-type spellcasters while stepping on their toes. Consider a wizard going up against a cleric and his high SR planar ally. The wizard casts assay resistance, but it gets countered. Knowing he has little chance of affecting his opponent, he casts another assay resistance as a standard action (or in place?). Not really broken perhaps since he cannot do anything until next round, but it's certainly useful as it would negate additional counterspelling. [/QUOTE]

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