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Message: <blockquote data-quote="squibbles" data-source="post: 8233258" data-attributes="member: 6937590">So that's a lot of opposition--from three totally different perspectives--to including ANY caster class, or watered-down version thereof in an S&S game.I doubtless have considerably less experience running an S&S game than you all, but my suggestion to the OP would be to build your game around what the players want to be in it once you get their buy-in. So, if everybody wants to play barbarians, fighters, and rogues, super cool, no work for you. On the other hand, if someone does want to play a caster class (and makes an effort to appropriately integrate it), try working out with them what they want out of the class mechanics-wise and/or theme-wise. Put the onus on them to make it S&S enough, while being able to live with it--maybe that devotion paladin of Mitra only uses spell slots to smite, and that's a good enough halfway point.The best theme-enforcing way to limit an S&S caster is its spell list. <a href="https://xoth.net/publishing/" target="_blank">World of Xoth</a> (which others have mentioned) uses the following criteria:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No artillery spells: fireball & friends.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No convenience spells: rope trick, leomund's tiny hut, water breathing.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No healing spells or resurrection magic: these things need dark and unsavory costs.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No instant transportation: teleport, dimension door.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No low-level divinations: detect magic, comprehend languages.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No superhero spells: invisibility, fly.</li> </ul>Of those, I think the prohibition on convenience spells is the most important one; an S&S sorcerer that allows the group to rest safely, and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkHapG6kXUg" target="_blank">subsist on goodberries</a> will ruin the theme a lot more than one that fireballs mooks or sometimes turns invisible. To compensate the player for taking those options out, you could add more S&S friendly spells from other classes spell lists, from Xoth's additions, <a href="https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sasquatchgamestudio/primeval-thule-5e" target="_blank">Primeval Thule</a>, <a href="https://koboldpress.com/kpstore/product/deep-magic-mythos-magic-pdf-5th-edition/" target="_blank">Mythos Magic from Kobold Press</a>, or other supplements.The upside of this is that you don't have to straitjacket the broad strokes of your gameworld until after you know what the players want to do. Are monks sufficiently S&S? It doesn't matter if nobody wants to play one--and if one of your players does, he/she can write a thematic setting background about them for you to riff on. Spend no effort overhauling character options unless there is a need at your table.Also, [USER=83242]@dave2008[/USER] : Elric of Melnibone is the greatest sorcerer of his age and still works great as an S&S protagonist, so does <a href="http://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/06/origin-of-druid.html" target="_blank">Elak</a> of <a href="http://grognardia.blogspot.com/search?q=elak" target="_blank">Atlantis</a> (and the Gray Mouser to a lesser extent) by <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability#The_problems_of_falsification" target="_blank">naive falsificationism</a> I have proved you wrong <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Pulp S&S heroes are supposed to be hamfisted and over the top--not grittily realistic. If you balance the long rest to short rest pacing using the frequently discussed 5-minute short rest, but only twice per day house rule, the main problem with spellcasting is how much of a universal toolbox it is; how many exploration and environmental problems it trivializes. That's not a problem if you take out the worst offenders in the toolbox--fly, detect magic, goodberry, and so on.I think a bunch of player races could be quickly reskinned as human or as S&S-trope creatures that can pose as human without being detected. The ones that jumped out at me on a half-baked first pass were:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Goliath--northern barbarian</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">High Elf--decadent melnibonean</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tabaxi--closeted werejaguar</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Yuan-Ti--diabolical serpentman spy (or obnoxious drizzt-alike exception)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Goblin--dread pygmy</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Tiefling--human warped by irresponsible sorcery</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Changeling--eldritch body-thief</li> </ul></blockquote>

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