Sword & Sorcery's Advanced Players Guide

Davelozzi

Explorer
Last week I saw Sword & Sorcery's new Advanced Players Guide at the store. I hadn't heard anything about it (or maybe I just lumped it in with the Green Ronin's upcoming Advanced Player's Manual in my head). I gave it a flip through for a few minutes and it looked pretty good. Has anyone had chance for a more detailed analysis? What'd you think?
 
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I looked at it for some time at my FLGS the other day. Most of it doesn't look too exciting (sort of a weaker UA, IMO). However, their treatment of "epic levels" (levels 21-30) looked pretty good -- much better than the "official" version, based on my quick read. I doubt I'll get it for those rules alone, though, as things never get into the "epic zone" in my campaigns.
 

I'm interested in this book also. The way they seemed to go out of their way to imitate the color scheme of the 2nd Edition PHB really caught my eye.

I want to know what kind of variant epic level rules they have. Especially because I think the problems with the current ELH lie more with the mistaken assumptions of its designers and the DMs who don't like it, than with the actual ELH itself.
 

It looks good and the S&S guys know how to put out a good product. It does though have some optional rules like merits and flaws that I wasn't that happy with looking through it. I imagine I'll pick it up at some point, but I'm going to hold off a little while and get some more info on it.
 

Dragonblade said:
I want to know what kind of variant epic level rules they have. Especially because I think the problems with the current ELH lie more with the mistaken assumptions of its designers and the DMs who don't like it, than with the actual ELH itself.

I don't understand this claim. If the designers of the ELH have "mistaken assumptions," how could the ELH itself not?
 


Belegbeth said:
I don't understand this claim. If the designers of the ELH have "mistaken assumptions," how could the ELH itself not?

Simple. The ELH works well as an extrapolation of the core rules into levels beyond the 20 found in the core PHB. However, this assumes you embrace the style of play that high level D&D fosters and you bear in mind several facts.

First of all, high level D&D is not mythic, it is superheroic. The designers of the ELH and D&D in general have put themselves in the awkward position of trying to foster a mythic play style with rules that workd best for a more superheroic play style.

The designers and most DMs who were unhappy with the ELH rules assumed two things that are wrong.

1) That D&D can be used for mythic play.
2) That the ELH can be dropped into an existing campaign with no problem.

First of all, you cannot use D&D rules for mythic play over an extended period of time. The game breaks down without any balances on the PCs power. Mythic play is basically simulating stories like the Odyssey where the PCs are these great heroes doing these great things. Mythic play can work fine for more abstract systems like in Exalted, but not in a tactical system such as D&D which is predicated on the PCs having external checks to their power. Mythic play assumes that the PCs are the only epic level characters in the world. The D&D (d20) system is predicated on checks and balances. But if every NPC is 1st level and your PCs are 30th, how long do you think your campaign can last? Or how well can verisimilitude be maintained when the PCs are veritable gods compared to the vast majority of NPCs in the game world?

Not very, hence some of the dissatisfaction with the ELH. Part of this problems stems from the flawed NPC level demographics in the DMG. D&D epic level gaming fails if you follow those demographics.

To run a long term successful campaign into the epic levels requires a world built for it from the beginning.

This brings me to point 2. The designers and many DMs who bought the book assumed they could just tack it on to existing campaigns when the PCs reached those levels. Well, it doesn't work that way.

A campaign world can only function without breaking down in the presence of epic PCs if they are not the only epic PCs in the world. For an epic campaign to successfully work, most major NPCs should be epic from the very beginning of the campaign. The average town guard should be from 10 to 20th level. The BBEG should be something like a level 80 lich archmage or something. Only by completely rescaling the NPC level demographics can a campaign progress into epic levels and use the ELH without a problem.

This problem is especially exagerated by many DMs who prefer a 'low-power' game. By its very nature, D&D is high powered and high magic. Those low power DMs who don't feel comfortable with the way the game changes beyond level 15, certainly aren't going to be comfortable going into epic levels. Especially since doing so and not causing the game to break down requires them to completely rescale the NPC level demographics of their campaign world. Not an easy task for DMs who are used to a much smaller scale such as level 1-15, where the most powerful NPCs in the world do not exceed levels 15-20.

There is nothing wrong with campaigns that use an abbreviated level scale, but those campaigns cannot progress into epic levels without breaking down.

Many DMs and the designers did not consider the ramifications that epic level scaling has. It certainly cannot be tacked on to an existing campaign without some serious consideration from the DM.
 

If your NPC levels scale into epic levels and you embrace the high magic tenets of the default D&D magic level. You can use the ELH with almost no problem whatsoever.

Although, I think epic spellcasting is slightly broken, even with the increased scale.
 

Good analysis of the ELH, Dragonblade.

Regarding the epic rules in the APG, after I left the store I was thinking about what I saw and wondered whether or not they were good beyond level 30. Though I'm not a fan of the ELG, it's nice that even though the charts only go to level 30, the rules extrapolate beyond that. Is that the case with the APG epic rules, or is it really just an 10 level extension?

BFG - thanks for the link.
 

Dragonblade said:
First of all, you cannot use D&D rules for mythic play over an extended period of time. The game breaks down without any balances on the PCs power. Mythic play is basically simulating stories like the Odyssey where the PCs are these great heroes doing these great things.

To run a long term successful campaign into the epic levels requires a world built for it from the beginning.
.

I disagree with these. It can be problematic but it depends on the DM. I run a very mythic style D&D game where the PCs are doing things that legends would be made from. We are going to go epic eventually, and it will not cause any problems. How do I know this? I know my players, I know my game, and I know how to make the ELH work for me.

Now, this book the thread is on might present a better way of doing that for me. I'll have to take a look at it to know.
 

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