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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5392914" data-attributes="member: 78116">This is correct and it's a good thing I didn't state that. What I stated is that for a marked target, if the marked target doesn't feel the need to attack the defender the defender is failing at their role. He does not (and should not) take all the hits from all the monsters. But he should be sufficiently threatening that the creature in question wants to attack him.Defenders have considerably more HP, surges and better defenses to accomplish this.I know how the game works, especially at epic given I've run 2 games in epic. Pre-MM1 a lot of this theory works very well, now with MM3 damage and importantly powers, it doesn't. Many of the assumptions made about the shielding swordmage are working on the fact most epic monsters had like, 1 attack for a pittance of damage. Now they attack multiple times for not a pittance of damage. This makes a big difference.You've missed the point entirely but:1) The fighter is not as easily hit as other members of the party - this is one of the key concepts. A Marilith will miss a fighter of the same level pretty often, doing much less damage. That same creature against your Wizard is going to shred him.2) The fighter threatens considerable damage - therefore killing and outright preventing all further damage from that creature. Incidentally a battlemind can do the same thing and so can a warden. The Paladin can not only threaten a monster with damage, but with hospitalier can heal allies considerably for every attack the monster makes that isn't against him while still doing damage.The difference actually is, because a larger total amount of HP and even 3-4 more surges means the defender is a lot more resilient. I'll tell you now that since MM3, I've gone through all the surges of a defender in 5 encounters consistently. Pre-MM3, I think I was lucky if I reduced him by around 4 surges or so. Also, that defender did an absolutely fantastic job and saved the party time and time again. The most critical one ever was finishing off a Herald of Colorless fire before it used its main attack to kill the Cleric on round 3 of a combat. The Cleric was 2 HP off negative bloodied, but being hit for a CC and OA (Warpriest Paragon Path btw, which is really really amazing for fighters) was the end of that (actually didn't need the CC, but he had the option).I am absolutely unconvinced in a tough combat the shielding swordmages mark will make a difference.Yes and what I've argued already in this thread is that this happens under MM3. Monsters have:A) More than one attack per round, either minor actions, tricksy things or just a standard that lets them.B) They can impose strong ongoing damage conditions and have high damaging auras - of which auras got buffed through the roof when damage was allowed to stack.Incidentally your final points are also perfectly spot on. But this is why defenders have the best HP, surge values and importantly: Defenses in the game. Half of epic tier tactics for a DM 101 is about avoiding the defender and getting stuck into the other characters. If the swordmage cannot present a threat that isn't ignorable - IMO the shielding swordmage certainly can't.Also. I am completely willing to get my maptools on and we'll go through what I think is a solid "average" adventuring day at epic. I am making and going to release an entire epic module on this forum, just for other DMs to look at and people to use if they want. So I'd love to playtest it with people interested.But I am willing to prove my point in an actual game environment, that isn't specifically designed to bother the swordmage to begin with (but rather challenge a variety of parties at least competently: A difficult task for an epic adventure I concede).Just as an aside, defenders are controllers who cross dress on village street corners and want people to hit them. The difference between a controller and a defender in many ways is actually pretty slight. Both want to directly affect a monsters ability to move and attack your allies. They do it in different ways of course, but a defender is a very similar kind of concept to the controller and both want to do the same thing: Prevent a monster from acting as it pleases.</blockquote>

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