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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pawsplay" data-source="post: 3583187" data-attributes="member: 15538">So, they've streamlined a lot of things from Star Wars d20, and I have to say, that baby runs smooth. However, there really is nothing for free, and the problem introduced is fiddling. I had some suspicions at first glance, but some conversions quickly solidified my understanding of the problem.What is fiddling? Fiddling is trying to get there from here, or to put it more clearly, trying to make exactly what you want. Point based systems often lead to fiddling, if the point totals are too stingy. Hero System encourages fiddling to max out your Disadvantage points, as they are lucrative yet hard to brainstorm. White Wolf characters are frequently fiddling for attribute or skill points, which tend to be distributed in a stingy fashion.Prestige classes in SWSE involve almost no fiddling; the prerequisites are very spare, so you can build basically however you like, excepting you'll need a skill or Talent only certain classes have access to. But you'll know exactly what to do. For instance, if you want to be an Elite Trooper, it identifies the talents required (particular Soldier trees).But each basic class has only certain Talents and certain class skills. Each basic class gets bonus feats at even levels (which could be skill training) and Talents at odd levels. Rather than throwing them all into a big pile, you have to strategize. A simple example is adding a class skill you would like. For instance, you'd like a Soldier who can Tumble. The earliest this can happen is 3rd level. Either you take two levels of Scoundrel or Jedi and select it as your bonus feat, or you take one and select it as your third level general feat.  You can maiximize Talent acquisition by taking mainly odd numbers of classes and multiclassing, or maximize Feats by taking even levels (or rather, reduce the loss of feats to Talents). And what happens to your Soldier who learns Acrobatics? He gets a bonus Feat, which could be Point Blank Shot (if he goes Scoundrel) or Force Sensitive or weapon proficiency (lightsabers) if he goes Jedi. If he simply wants to be a martial artist of some kind, either route adds extraneous abilities. However, he can't stick with Soldier if he wants Acrobatics. If he wants Evasion... that's a Scout talent. So classes that were intended to create strong archetypes end up causing a diffusion of character concept, as martial artists gain unwanted and unneeded armor proficiencies, Point Blank Shot, and so forth. And the Saga edition has dispensed with bonus class skills for Fringers (because there are no Fringers) and Nobles. If you are a Soldier headed for Elite Trooper, you might want to snag a level or two of Scout. When you multiclass, you get one of the new class's starting feats. The only one you don't have is Shake it Off, but you don't get it if you don't qualify. Thus, a Soldier will want Con 13 and Trained in Endurance before taking Scout, so he can qualify for the feat and select it as his feat for multiclassing. Conversely, a Scout taking a level of Soldier gets Armor Proficiency (light), but will have to select AP (medium) on his own, so he needs to make sure he either reserves a Feat or takes an even number of Scout levels, and the last one after taking his Soldier level (he can't take it as a Soldier bonus feat without a houserule, because Soldiers normally have it already, but Scouts have it available as a bonus).That's where you get your fiddling. You can't just throw a few ranks of skill into Gather Information cross-class for your concept. If you want to be competent at something, particularly if you want trained only uses of a skill, you have to multiclass, and spend an unused feat. Each class has several trees. Each characters get bonus feats by level and by class. Each talent tree goes several deep to get to some nice Talents. Each class has a fairly narrow class skill list. Thus, while skill rank maths have been removed under the new system, a great deal of fiddling has been introduced, trying to take these tools and put together a particular combination of talents, skills, and feats. It is no longer an option to simply aim for a particular Prestige class and grab class skills; they don't grant any. No, you have to work with what you have. Thus, all heroic doctors are Soldiers or Nobles. You know every medically focused build is going to include one of those two classes, and you have to figure out how to wedge that in there. You know virtually every martial artist is going to have either Point Blank Shot, Force Sensitive, and/or proficiency in the lightsaber, thanks to the fact that only Scoundrels and Jedi get Acrobatics. Many will end up with proficiency in rifles and armor.</blockquote>

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