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Message: <blockquote data-quote="comrade raoul" data-source="post: 3686760" data-attributes="member: 554">Basically, I think Use the Force would work a lot better if it had a steeper progression--if it scaled with a character's heroic level, like attacks and defenses, rather than half a character's heroic level plus a large flat bonus, like skills.The basic reasoning is that Force users should always be able to use the Force against equally capable opponents with more or less the same effectiveness, regardless of their current level. Here's the rationale in more detail (behind the block, for those who might not need it or want to cut to the crunch):[sblock]While (I think) I understand why the Use the Force is a skill in Saga Edition (it's a nifty bit of streamlining), I think its status as a skill creates more problems than it solves. The big problem is that Use the Force is largely unique among skills by being used against an opponent's attack roll (for the Jedi defensive talents) or defense bonuses (for lots of Force powers)--but, because training in a skill and the Skill Focus feat give large, flat bonuses, skill bonuses tend to start higher but increase more slowly as characters advance than attack or defense bonuses. This is fine for most skills--it's nice for the relative advantage trained users have over untrained ones to be relatively constant over a character's life.I think this is much less fine for Use the Force, however. Because it means that offensive and defensive Force abilities scale at a different rate from a character's attacks and defenses, it means that combative powers and talents are disproportionately effective at low levels rather than high levels, rather than staying comparably effective throughout a character's life.Roughly, this means that a young padawan can effortlessly deflect attacks from typical stormtroopers and toss them about with ease, but a Jedi Master's attempts to use the Force against an equally skilled adversary are generally real longshots. In particular, A typical 3rd-level Jedi might have a Use the Force bonus of +13--given training, Skill Focus, and a 14 Charisma--which is probably going to be really powerful against an adversary's +6 or so attack bonus or, say, a 15 Will Defense. But by 13th level, that Jedi's bonus probably has only increased to +18 or so (a little more if the character keeps working on his or her Charisma), while she's dealing with attacks in the twenties and defenses in the high twenties and low thirties.The way to fix this is to model Use the Force differently from other skills--basically, not to treat it as a skill at all--and allow it to advance, like attacks and defenses, directly according to a character's level.[/sblock]We can do this by changing some relevant feats, as follows. Note that all feats treat Use the Force as a separate sort of ability, rather than a skill. Thus, Force Study I replies Skill Training (Use the Force), and Force Study II and Force Study III combine to replace Skill Focus (Use the Force). (Note that Skill Focus (Use the Force) is essentially split into two feats, since it's potentially so powerful.)The result is that the Force functions like a skill without being a skill, and with (as above) an appropriately steeper progression. Thus:Since being "trained in the Use the Force skill" no longer makes sense, the Force Training feat should now require Force Study I as an additional prerequisite. The only other rule this should change are Jedi starting abilities and bonus feats, as follows: <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Jedi add Force Study I to their list of starting feats.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A Jedi starts with a number of trained skills equal to only 1 + their Int modifier (since they're effectively now trained in Use the Force by default).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Add Force Study II and Force Study III to a Jedi's list of available bonus feats.</li> </ul>Otherwise, everything else should work as written. Note that bonuses that apply to skill checks in general (like the scoundrel's Fool's Luck talent) don't apply to Use the Force checks. Talents that allow Jedi to replace other skills with Use the Force work as normal, which means, like other applications of Use the Force, they're probably weaker at low levels but stronger at high levels. (Are talents like Force Intuition, Force Perception, and Force Pilot even worth taking at all at low levels? Maybe--if your key ability for the relevant skill isn't that great or if you're not even trained in the skill, or if you have a really high Charisma or if you've taken Force Study II or III relatively early. At high levels, though, you get a result that, I think, makes more sense--you can draw on the Force to have perceptive or diplomatic abilities that really stand out. So the talents become a little more complicated than just skill substitutions.)</blockquote>

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