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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 5600966" data-attributes="member: 177">I'm not sure that's true.  Or not purely true, anyway.Yes, the GM wants to challenge the player's skill, rather than the character's, and that's typically viewed as gamist*.  But, player skill is typically demonstrated within the context of a defined set of game rules, and the GM has stepped outside the RPG's game rules to present the challenge.So, the fundamental conflict here may not be between the legs on the tripod, but instead just on what player-challenges are acceptable.  * Not all challenges to players are gamist - I used to run Paranoia games, in which we presented food styled in the manner of Alpha Complex.  That food was certainly a challenge to the players, but it was really a simulation element.</blockquote>