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<blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 8416357" data-attributes="member: 6785785"><p>I think that requires a specific interpretation of the rules....but I don't think debating this any more is really relevant, so I'll move on.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Why would you even be using the rules and grid if it was not combat? I disagree that in the world of the fiction, two friendly people standing in a 10 foot doorway block me from passing by. The rules are only for use when there is doubt. If there's no doubt, then no need to invoke the rules at all. </p><p></p><p>And the person occupying a 5 foot space is again about the space they control during combat. It's totally irrelevant outside of combat. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It very much depends on the game. I like D&D just fine, but I have plenty of criticisms of it....but even this is something I think is easily handled. The PC has a relevant stat and maybe a skill, the NPC has a relevant stat and maybe a skill. Oh, the floor is rough and rocky, so not really conducive to sliding past the guards....opposed rolls and the PC has disadvantage on his roll. </p><p></p><p>This is literally the same kind of thing that FKR would come up with, except (I think, I'm not quite sure) he wouldn't tell the player what anyone was rolling or what was being added, or why the player had to roll twice. </p><p></p><p>Again, I'm not against a GM using their judgment, or against simplifying a rules system to be smoother and cleaner. I'm against the part where it's somehow deemed better to not share these things with the player.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Your argument seems to be that rules cannot be bent or reconsidered in any way, and can only be abandoned. </p><p></p><p>If a player in a D&D game said to me "I want to get past these guards" I'd ask him how he planned to do that, and then I'd come up with something and explain to him what it was. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, FKR is about trust and that comes from consistently applied judgment. If it's raining on Wednesday then sure, something may be harder than it was on Tuesday. But if there aren't really any different factors, then I would expect things to be consistent. The doubt, if there is any, should be represented by the dice, not the GM's whim or indifference.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would argue that a player's understanding of the fiction can be very different than that of the GM. </p><p></p><p>And the downplay of consistency here is surprising considering the actual point of Free Kriegsspiel in wargames.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know what this means. I'm not calling on consistency for the sake of consistency. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've played a couple of them. I'm not asking anyone to convince me of anything. I'm asking about what makes this movement different from others. </p><p></p><p>So far, all I've managed to figure out is that no one is committed strongly enough to actually explain, and consistency is right out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That may be a motivation for some players, or may be a motivation at times. Do you actually think it's the only reason? </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, I saw this when it was last posted. I get the idea. There's nothing I hate more than players turtling with their characters. It makes for boring play. So I agree with that part of the video, and with that general goal (if it is one?) of the FKR.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's great. I don't know if I would find it to be that. I think when this problem rears its head at my group's table...which when it does is almost always when playing D&D as opposed to other games....we handle it in other ways. </p><p></p><p>I think I view this idea of removing player knowledge of rules as a scorched earth kind of approach.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well you said the opposite is true of FKR games.....and I don't think that's the case.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="hawkeyefan, post: 8416357, member: 6785785"] I think that requires a specific interpretation of the rules....but I don't think debating this any more is really relevant, so I'll move on. Why would you even be using the rules and grid if it was not combat? I disagree that in the world of the fiction, two friendly people standing in a 10 foot doorway block me from passing by. The rules are only for use when there is doubt. If there's no doubt, then no need to invoke the rules at all. And the person occupying a 5 foot space is again about the space they control during combat. It's totally irrelevant outside of combat. It very much depends on the game. I like D&D just fine, but I have plenty of criticisms of it....but even this is something I think is easily handled. The PC has a relevant stat and maybe a skill, the NPC has a relevant stat and maybe a skill. Oh, the floor is rough and rocky, so not really conducive to sliding past the guards....opposed rolls and the PC has disadvantage on his roll. This is literally the same kind of thing that FKR would come up with, except (I think, I'm not quite sure) he wouldn't tell the player what anyone was rolling or what was being added, or why the player had to roll twice. Again, I'm not against a GM using their judgment, or against simplifying a rules system to be smoother and cleaner. I'm against the part where it's somehow deemed better to not share these things with the player. Your argument seems to be that rules cannot be bent or reconsidered in any way, and can only be abandoned. If a player in a D&D game said to me "I want to get past these guards" I'd ask him how he planned to do that, and then I'd come up with something and explain to him what it was. Well, FKR is about trust and that comes from consistently applied judgment. If it's raining on Wednesday then sure, something may be harder than it was on Tuesday. But if there aren't really any different factors, then I would expect things to be consistent. The doubt, if there is any, should be represented by the dice, not the GM's whim or indifference. I would argue that a player's understanding of the fiction can be very different than that of the GM. And the downplay of consistency here is surprising considering the actual point of Free Kriegsspiel in wargames. I don't know what this means. I'm not calling on consistency for the sake of consistency. I've played a couple of them. I'm not asking anyone to convince me of anything. I'm asking about what makes this movement different from others. So far, all I've managed to figure out is that no one is committed strongly enough to actually explain, and consistency is right out. That may be a motivation for some players, or may be a motivation at times. Do you actually think it's the only reason? Yeah, I saw this when it was last posted. I get the idea. There's nothing I hate more than players turtling with their characters. It makes for boring play. So I agree with that part of the video, and with that general goal (if it is one?) of the FKR. That's great. I don't know if I would find it to be that. I think when this problem rears its head at my group's table...which when it does is almost always when playing D&D as opposed to other games....we handle it in other ways. I think I view this idea of removing player knowledge of rules as a scorched earth kind of approach. Well you said the opposite is true of FKR games.....and I don't think that's the case. [/QUOTE]
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